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Deposit - Small claims
yea33
Posts: 12 Forumite
Hi,
My flatmate and I moved out of our flat in September after a tenancy of 3.5 years.
We had a deposit of £1100 and the landlord wrote to us, making deductions of around £850 for the following:
- £290 dilapidations schedule charge (as outlined in lease)
- £200 for cleaning of upholstery/oven/curtains/carpets - we were instructed in the moving out instructions to get these professionally cleaned which we did, and provided a receipt to the landlord for the work, however apparently the standard was not up to scratch and they suggested instead that make a claim against the cleaning company
- £200 general cleaning costs - we were provided with 3 pages of cleaning that apparently had to be done e.g. wipe smear from cupboard door - we cleaned the flat following the detailed moving out instructions they gave us - we weren't asked to get the flat professionally cleaned aside from the items noted in the point above
- £160 replacement items - we agree with around £100 of this but a couple of items that we are being charged for weren't on the inventory.
After several emails, we told them we would raise a dispute via MyDeposits, as we believe the flat was left in a very clean state and we also dispute the £290 dilaps schedule charge as it seems disproportionate and was also not set out particularly clearly in the lease.
In response, they sent a letter adding £280 of charges for four instances of late rent over the course of the tenancy. I was not aware of these until this point as the landlord always communicated with my flatmate and he paid the rent from his account.
Since this letter, they have raised a court order for just over the full amount of our deposit (including the late rent charges as set out in the tenancy agreement) plus the court fee. I realise the late rent payments are a complete breach of contract on our part, and wouldn't attempt to defend this part of the cost in court (I find it strange they didn't charge us for this earlier though), but also think this just puts us in a terrible light in the whole dispute and make us less likely to win on the other points.
Although the landlord did protect the deposit, we didn't receive any communication of this at any point, until after the end of the tenancy when we asked to see it - they forwarded a copy unsigned by us.
Does anyone have any advice what to do at this point, or have any experience of going through small claims court in this situation? We have to respond to the court order by the end of December so don't have a lot of time to consider this. We haven't as of yet raised anything with MyDeposits, but I know the landlord can just refuse to go down that route anyway. So far it seems like the landlord just has an answer for everything. They are also based at the other end of the country so by initiating the court action they're forcing us into considerable travel costs if we don't win.
Sorry for the long post - any advice would be appreciated. I'm currently in the process of buying a house so don't want to incur any more costs, but equally don't want to lose the full deposit when I don't think the deductions are fair.
My flatmate and I moved out of our flat in September after a tenancy of 3.5 years.
We had a deposit of £1100 and the landlord wrote to us, making deductions of around £850 for the following:
- £290 dilapidations schedule charge (as outlined in lease)
- £200 for cleaning of upholstery/oven/curtains/carpets - we were instructed in the moving out instructions to get these professionally cleaned which we did, and provided a receipt to the landlord for the work, however apparently the standard was not up to scratch and they suggested instead that make a claim against the cleaning company
- £200 general cleaning costs - we were provided with 3 pages of cleaning that apparently had to be done e.g. wipe smear from cupboard door - we cleaned the flat following the detailed moving out instructions they gave us - we weren't asked to get the flat professionally cleaned aside from the items noted in the point above
- £160 replacement items - we agree with around £100 of this but a couple of items that we are being charged for weren't on the inventory.
After several emails, we told them we would raise a dispute via MyDeposits, as we believe the flat was left in a very clean state and we also dispute the £290 dilaps schedule charge as it seems disproportionate and was also not set out particularly clearly in the lease.
In response, they sent a letter adding £280 of charges for four instances of late rent over the course of the tenancy. I was not aware of these until this point as the landlord always communicated with my flatmate and he paid the rent from his account.
Since this letter, they have raised a court order for just over the full amount of our deposit (including the late rent charges as set out in the tenancy agreement) plus the court fee. I realise the late rent payments are a complete breach of contract on our part, and wouldn't attempt to defend this part of the cost in court (I find it strange they didn't charge us for this earlier though), but also think this just puts us in a terrible light in the whole dispute and make us less likely to win on the other points.
Although the landlord did protect the deposit, we didn't receive any communication of this at any point, until after the end of the tenancy when we asked to see it - they forwarded a copy unsigned by us.
Does anyone have any advice what to do at this point, or have any experience of going through small claims court in this situation? We have to respond to the court order by the end of December so don't have a lot of time to consider this. We haven't as of yet raised anything with MyDeposits, but I know the landlord can just refuse to go down that route anyway. So far it seems like the landlord just has an answer for everything. They are also based at the other end of the country so by initiating the court action they're forcing us into considerable travel costs if we don't win.
Sorry for the long post - any advice would be appreciated. I'm currently in the process of buying a house so don't want to incur any more costs, but equally don't want to lose the full deposit when I don't think the deductions are fair.
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Comments
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You can apply for the court to transfer the case to your local court, contact them for the form. This will make them travel instead.
I would fully defend all, and also dispute the cost of late paymentDon't put your trust into an Experian score - it is not a number any bank will ever use & it is generally a waste of money to purchase it. They are also selling you insurance you dont need.0 -
Thanks for the reply. Didn't realise we could transfer it to another court - it would definitely seem fairer to do it where the property is.
On what basis could we dispute the late rent charges?
If the outcome was that we got back part of the deposit but not all, would the costs likely be split between us and the landlord?0 -
Hi,
My flatmate and I moved out of our flat in September after a tenancy of 3.5 years.
We had a deposit of £1100 and the landlord wrote to us, making deductions of around £850 for the following:
- £290 dilapidations schedule charge (as outlined in lease)
- £200 for cleaning of upholstery/oven/curtains/carpets - we were instructed in the moving out instructions to get these professionally cleaned which we did, and provided a receipt to the landlord for the work, however apparently the standard was not up to scratch and they suggested instead that make a claim against the cleaning company
- £200 general cleaning costs - we were provided with 3 pages of cleaning that apparently had to be done e.g. wipe smear from cupboard door - we cleaned the flat following the detailed moving out instructions they gave us - we weren't asked to get the flat professionally cleaned aside from the items noted in the point above
- £160 replacement items - we agree with around £100 of this but a couple of items that we are being charged for weren't on the inventory.
After several emails, we told them we would raise a dispute via MyDeposits, as we believe the flat was left in a very clean state and we also dispute the £290 dilaps schedule charge as it seems disproportionate and was also not set out particularly clearly in the lease.
In response, they sent a letter adding £280 of charges for four instances of late rent over the course of the tenancy. I was not aware of these until this point as the landlord always communicated with my flatmate and he paid the rent from his account.
Since this letter, they have raised a court order for just over the full amount of our deposit (including the late rent charges as set out in the tenancy agreement) plus the court fee. I realise the late rent payments are a complete breach of contract on our part, and wouldn't attempt to defend this part of the cost in court (I find it strange they didn't charge us for this earlier though), but also think this just puts us in a terrible light in the whole dispute and make us less likely to win on the other points.
Although the landlord did protect the deposit, we didn't receive any communication of this at any point, until after the end of the tenancy when we asked to see it - they forwarded a copy unsigned by us.
Does anyone have any advice what to do at this point, or have any experience of going through small claims court in this situation? We have to respond to the court order by the end of December so don't have a lot of time to consider this. We haven't as of yet raised anything with MyDeposits, but I know the landlord can just refuse to go down that route anyway. So far it seems like the landlord just has an answer for everything. They are also based at the other end of the country so by initiating the court action they're forcing us into considerable travel costs if we don't win.
Sorry for the long post - any advice would be appreciated. I'm currently in the process of buying a house so don't want to incur any more costs, but equally don't want to lose the full deposit when I don't think the deductions are fair.
Good overview of the process here:
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/law_e/law_legal_system_e/law_taking_legal_action_e/small_claims.htm
Difficult to help with the rent arrears question. How late was the rent? Was landlord informed it was going to be late? How long ago did it happen? Maybe dependent on the answers you might be able to defend this.
Did you take photographs when you left to prove the sate of the place?
The onus is on the landlord to prove the condition of the place versus when you first rented save wear and tear.
Just a word about the schedule of dilapidations schedule charge - it might be worth getting a free half an hour from a solicitor and showing the wording in the contract. It might be considered an unfair clause. As far as I know this charge is between your landlord and the landlord of the building - your landlord being the tenant of the leasehold property. Smetimes this charge is passed on through a service charge to the tenants but I have never heard of it being passed onto the tenant's 'tenants' (hope you understand that!)when they leave.0 -
pmlindyloo wrote: »Good overview of the process here:
Difficult to help with the rent arrears question. How late was the rent? Was landlord informed it was going to be late? How long ago did it happen? Maybe dependent on the answers you might be able to defend this.
Did you take photographs when you left to prove the sate of the place?
The onus is on the landlord to prove the condition of the place versus when you first rented save wear and tear.
Just a word about the schedule of dilapidations schedule charge - it might be worth getting a free half an hour from a solicitor and showing the wording in the contract. It might be considered an unfair clause. As far as I know this charge is between your landlord and the landlord of the building - your landlord being the tenant of the leasehold property. Smetimes this charge is passed on through a service charge to the tenants but I have never heard of it being passed onto the tenant's 'tenants' (hope you understand that!)when they leave.
Thanks. Trying to get my flatmate to look at his bank statements to understand more about the rent arrears - the lease states charges would only apply if they received the rent more than 7 days after rent day. I'm 99% sure we didn't tell the landlord it would be late.
We have a few photos of the property at the end of tenancy but they don't prove/disprove a lot of the points, especially on the general cleaning list they gave us - but I guess they'd need to provide before and after photos to prove these items? If they just had evidence the flat was professionally cleaned prior to the start of the tenancy would this be a cover-all on their part? I've never been to small claims court before so have no idea how black and white it is - really annoying they won't just use the MyDeposits dispute resolution service to be honest - although I hear they tend to have a bias towards tenants which I guess is why.
I think I understand re the schedule of dilaps - so the freeholder charges our landlord who is then passing the charge on to us?0 -
My bolding. If you are absolutely certain that the LL did not provide you with the scheme's "prescribed information" ( and that they cannot prove otherwise) then you could have some negotiating space. You obviously need to push your flatmate on this one as you mention that you were unaware of late rent payments becauseAlthough the landlord did protect the deposit, we didn't receive any communication of this at any point, until after the end of the tenancy when we asked to see it - they forwarded a copy unsigned by us.
Are you sure that the info was not sent to your flatmate within the appropriate timescale? Was the deposit scheme- registered on time?the landlord always communicated with my flatmate and he paid the rent from his account.
Was your tenancy a series of Fixed Terms or an initial FT, followed by a Stat Periodic Agreement running on from one month to the next (assuming rent paid monthly)?
In response to one of the OP's other comments, as a general note, if you absolutely can't meet your rent payment on time *always* contact the LL in advance. Yes, even if your LL fails to meet his/her own commitments. Confirm when you will be able to pay up and then do so.0 -
http://www.mydeposits.co.uk/sites/default/files/Information%20for%20Tenants%20Leaflet%20April%202013.pdf
Info for tenants above ^.In response, they sent a letter adding £280 of charges for four instances of late rent over the course of the tenancy. I was not aware of these until this point as the landlord always communicated with my flatmate and he paid the rent from his account.
Since this letter, they have raised a court order for just over the full amount of our deposit (including the late rent charges as set out in the tenancy agreement) plus the court fee. I realise the late rent payments are a complete breach of contract on our part, and wouldn't attempt to defend this part of the cost in court (I find it strange they didn't charge us for this earlier though), but also think this just puts us in a terrible light in the whole dispute and make us less likely to win on the other points.
I would guess the rent arrear charges are as a direct result of you disputing the deductions. If they have to fight to get what they believe to be reasonable they may as well go for more, maybe hoping that you will compromise.
I did think that charges on rent arrears were deemed "unreasonable" in a contract, particularly adding £70 a time for rent that was just a few days late.I'm a Forum Ambassador on the housing, mortgages & student money saving boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Forum Ambassadors are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.0 -
My bolding. If you are absolutely certain that the LL did not provide you with the scheme's "prescribed information" ( and that they cannot prove otherwise) then you could have some negotiating space. You obviously need to push your flatmate on this one as you mention that you were unaware of late rent payments because Are you sure that the info was not sent to your flatmate within the appropriate timescale? Was the deposit scheme- registered on time?
The DPS certificate should have been sent to us in June so I'd definitely remember if we'd received it (I believe my flatmate that he hasn't seen it either - any post received from the landlord he wouldn't have kept to himself - the late rent communications were always via phone/email) - we'd also definitely have signed and returned it as it would have been in our interests. They copy they forwarded on request after the end of our tenancy had a cover letter with it dated June and a handwritten note saying it had been posted. From the certificate it looks like they have registered with the scheme on time.Was your tenancy a series of Fixed Terms or an initial FT, followed by a Stat Periodic Agreement running on from one month to the next (assuming rent paid monthly)?
There was an initial 12 month tenancy and then we renegotiated rent for a further 12 months and signed a new AST each year, but with a 2 month notice period.0 -
They may well need to look at making their own "compromise" since the law requires *both* that the deposit is Scheme registered and that the Deposit Scheme's Prescribed Info is passed to the T within the correct timescale. It sounds as though the latter has not happened as the OP says they only received the deposit "certificate" after the tenancy ended, in response to a direct query. Even if a "certificate" had been received on time, it may not include *all* of the Prescribed Info required.I would guess the rent arrear charges are as a direct result of you disputing the deductions. If they have to fight to get what they believe to be reasonable they may as well go for more, maybe hoping that you will compromise.
OP may want to consider a Letter Before Action of their own, stating that Prescribed Info was not received in full/on time as required under the law.
See Court of Appeal case Ayannuga v Swindells
Edited to add: Looking back, the OP mentions that the relevant Scheme was MyDeposits. See here for RLA (Residential LL Assoc) guidance on what should be given to Ts, along with the Certificate.
OP you may want to talk to someone at Shelter for further guidance. Their website also has template letters. 0808 800 44440 -
Reading the RLA link, I don't believe we received any of the prescribed information. I assume we should've been provided with this each year when the deposit protection was renewed - and we definitely didn't receive it this year (although couldn't say one way or another whether at the start of the lease in 2009).
Letter before action - the landlord last wrote to us on 9 Dec stating they would proceed through the Small Claims Court (our previous communication stated we'd be raising a dispute with MyDeposits). The claim was filed on 14 Dec - is this a sufficient time lapse? Their letter did not give any timeframe for us to respond.
Would the best action be to return an Acknowledgement of Service for now and defend the claim subsequent to that? We need to respond one way or another to the Court Order by 1 Jan. Conscious we are on a short timeframe given the time of year. We are also in the process of raising the dispute on MyDeposits as we are getting close to three months since we moved out.0 -
You need to respond with the dispute, do dispute the late fees as been not inline with costs incurred by them. Also say you wish to defend in person.
you also have the option to ask for an extra period to build your defence --- DO RESPONDDon't put your trust into an Experian score - it is not a number any bank will ever use & it is generally a waste of money to purchase it. They are also selling you insurance you dont need.0
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