Help with bad independent dealer

Krayzee

On 5th December this year, I went to view a van in the neighbouring village, as I want a van to expand my window cleaning business - I currently use ladders attached to a Clio but it's time to stop using the ladders now, move to the high reach poles system. I'm after a van with fairly specific criteria (for example it needs a certain amount of payload as I'll be fitting a water tank and storing other tools and equipment in there) and this van with this independent dealer fit the description. I went to see the Ford Transit (armed with knowledge of what to look out for with second hand vehicles, common van faults, common Transit faults and the like) and looked it over. One of the fuel injection rods (the number 1) had liquid around the base of it (there's a circle where it had pooled) and on smelling it, it smelt like fuel. I told the dealer and he told me it was fine, there were no leaks - the fuel injector rods are one of the common problems with Transits, it's why I paid particular attention to it. On the walk around, I asked him what the faults were with it, if anything major or minor needed doing to it and he told me no, there was nothing.

I took it for a fairly quick test drive, a mile or two, he accompanied me, and there were no noises telling me anything was wrong during the drive. I then checked over the service history (which is really just one sheet of paper with a list of dates, mileage, and whether it had had a service, MOT etc) and the last two MOT certificates which didn't have any advisory notes on them. On agreeing a fee, I returned with the deposit the next day, the 6th and this is confirmed on my bank statement as I withdrew the cash. My wife was with me when we paid the deposit and I showed her the van, including the fuel injector rod with the liquid on, and again the dealer said it was nothing despite it smelling like fuel.

We returned later that same day to pay the amount in full but he has put 5/12/13 on both the deposit and the Used Car Invoice, which I probably should've checked and amended.

On getting the van home it was dark and from signalling during the drive home, it was clear the left indicator bulb was going - it was flicking on and off very quickly. My wife helped me reverse the van and noticed it had no reversing lights. We then checked the other rear lights and found other problems - one hazard light was correct, the other was turning the normal rear light on and off; one fog light worked, the other turned the hazard warning light on instead. An internal rear loading bay light also wasn't working.

The next morning I rang the dealer and he agreed to fix the lights and he did. I asked why he hadn't checked any of the lights before selling me the vehicle, as it was an MOT fail, and he said he hadn't checked the lights but had checked everything else. He said it was a bad earth and that it was now all fixed. Alarm bells were now going off, as was my gut but the van seemed ok.

I set to work preparing the rear of the van for having a water tank fitted (I have a 300 mile round trip to the West Midlands to have it professionally fitted, and have booked an appointment to have all the equipment and fitters ready, which is this Monday 23 December), and this included an evening drive to Homebase, where I noticed fuel spills where I had parked the van. On getting home, there were also fuel spills on our driveway. I rang our local garage to book it in to have a look, and to also do an overall vehicle inspection on it as I was seriously concerned about the state of the vehicle I had purchased.

Sure enough, the garage informed me there was a leak in the fuel injector 1 rod, in the pipe union, and on removing the rod, there are imperfections in the steel as if it had been bashed about a bit! No good when it has to deal with high pressure. I have this fuel injector rod (1 and 2 as they are attached and are fitted in pairs) with me still, should I need it as evidence. I informed the independent dealer about the problem with the van, and that I had asked my regular garage to fix it and asked him to pay for it. He refused as he could've fixed it himself. I do accept this, as by law the dealer should be given the chance to rectify the fault, but the van should not have been sold to me in this dangerous condition, and I told him I couldn't trust him to do a proper job, considering he didn't even bother checking something as simple as the lights on the vehicle and he couldn't answer my question when I asked him why he sold me this van in this dangerous condition, and that it's not roadworthy and not fit for purpose. On top of this there was also a broken oil pressure switch, which the garage quickly changed, but again, it's something else that should have been done prior to sale.

Hoping that was the end of it, I took the £300 hit for the repairs (plus the £100 for the inspection), wanting to put it all behind me, and concentrate on getting the van ready so I can get back to work and earning - I hadn't worked since getting the van as there was still a lot to do, and I took everything out of the Clio to have it valeted ready to sell on.

The very next day, it wouldn't start. I'm not great with vans so didn't have a clue - it was turning over just not firing, but I took a few hours to charge the battery in case the power had gotten too low. This didn't work so I called out the RAC (after upgrading my membership with them as my current membership didn't have Home Start on it) and the RAC mechanic spent a good amount of time checking everything over to try and start it. The engine started using EastStart but then stalled - fuel was not getting to the engine from the fuel filter (the fuel filter was getting fuel from the tank ok) so he suggested it might be the fuel pump. It was now around 5:30pm so he towed my car to my regular garage, for them to look at the next morning.

During their investigation, they found an engine management trouble code stored for main relay power failure. The battery was dead (they said the battery wasn't good enough for the van) so they charged it and carried out engine bay electrical testing. They identified low power supply to fuel pump (9.4-9.5 volts) resulting in loss of diesel injection. They carried out main engine bay fuse box testing - introducing independent power supply to main relay and identified volt drop (3.5 volts) between main relay and fuel pump relay. Suspecting internal fuse box fault but they stopped the investigation there as it was taking so much time, and therefore my money, to investigate. They suspect it needs a new fuse box and engine loom, which is £1100 from Ford, never mind the cost of labour and VAT.

The warranty the dealer gave me is third party and only covers up to £500 per claim so that's no good. I then asked the dealer for a full refund as the van is not fit for purpose and he refused. I actually asked him to repeat himself as he was breaking the law by refusing the refund, and he repeated that he wasn't going to give me my money back, he wants the chance to fix it. I can't bring myself to trust that he will do even an adequate job in fixing it, and that it won't break down two weeks later, at which point I'll have had a tank bolted into the back and be really stuck.

He picked the van up from my regular garage yesterday, and towed it to the garage he usually uses, which is several miles away. I have spoken to him twice today (I've had to hide my mobile number from appearing on calls as he doesn't pick up when he sees it's me), he's also had a go at me because I keep calling him, which I told him off for. Why wouldn't I keep ringing to find out what's going on, especially as he says he'll ring to update me, and he doesn't.

I have to be in the West Midlands on Monday with a van for the fitting, and it's looking like I'll have to cancel.

If he says he has fixed the van, and it runs, am I still, legally, entitled to demand a full refund, based on everything you have read above with the on-going problems. If he says it's fixed, I then have a 300-mile round trip where I will have no faith on whether I will actually make it there and back again, and will it last a reasonable amount of time?

These things I have yet to discuss with him - on his AutoTrader advert, it said MOT 11/2014, this is wrong, it's actually 03/14, the advert has gone from AutoTrader now and I don't have a copy of it but presumably AutoTrader would? On his own website, it said "90% tyre condition" but my regular garage have informed me that the rear tyres are on their legal limit, and the front ones have 3mm left - again the advert has gone and I don't have a copy but maybe there is still a copy of it out there. During the first garage inspection, when they fixed the diesel leak, they advised me that there was a leak in the CV gaitor and that the anti roll rod was bent, probably during a bump, which will need attention and around £400 to fix.

Please ask if I have left anything out and I'll update my story. Really I'd like to know if I can ask for a refund from him right now, even if he has fixed the van. And if he refuses, my next steps are mediation/ombudsman and/or the civil courts/small claims as it will be under £10,000. This will take time, and I need a van to be able to work, otherwise there is no money coming in, but bills still need to be paid.

Thank you very much, I can't begin to describe how devastating this has been to me as I have borrowed this money from my father-in-law to expand my business, to look after his daughter and grandchildren.

Chris

bigjl

How much was the van and what age/mileage


I must admit if I was buying a van for my business it would be a Sprinter

And I would buy it direct from auction

Merthyr Motor Auctions in Wales has a large stock of vans and it is rare for an auction to hodge things up to hide things and MMA take in entire fleets including NHS fleets

Come to think about it the Master is actually fairly reliable aswell or the Opel, Nissan or Vauxhall versions of the same van.

But rare in anything other than 3.5 tonne flavour

I certainly would avoid any van from a commercial trader unless I had an AA/RAC inspection

Krayzee

£3500, 2005, 45000 miles, mileage on the MOTs and service history tie up with the DVLA's records.

An update:

I have just spoken to the dealer, who told me it was nothing to do with what my regular garage had said, he said the fuse box was fine, it might be the fuel pump. It won't be done today but the parts will be in on Monday.

At which I said that that was enough. I repeated that the van wasn't fit for purpose, it's not of satisfactory quality as it doesn't run and has had problems ever since I bought it, and under the Sale of Goods Act I want my money back. We then round in circles a bit, with him repeatedly refusing me a refund as well as talking over me when I was speaking, causing me to raise my voice to the point of shouting down the phone at him, though I didn't swear or abuse. I am very reasonable and try to see things from others point of view but there's only so far I will be pushed and I will always stand up for myself, especially when he's clearly breaking the law.

I told him I am backed by the Sale of Goods Act and that I have the law on my side, and he said I didn't!

I asked him when he would be back at his home (he has an office and his dealer yard at his large house) so I could come over and get my money but he doesn't do online banking and refused to use telephone banking to transfer the money that way.

I told him I would be over Monday morning so he can give me my refund and he told me not to tell him what to do. He said I can stand around outside as much as I like, doesn't bother him, and when I replied that I won't be outside, I'll be in your office waiting for your refund and I'll stay as long as it takes as I can't work without a van he began yelling at me not to threaten him!

When I pointed out there was no threat to him, I was clearly stating what I would do on Monday to get my refund, and anyone who wanted to look at his vehicles I'd tell them why I was there, he hung up.

I'll try and print out some Sale of Goods Act terms and highlight those that apply to me and the refund I deserve, and take the small claims court form with me to show him my intentions, but doubt that will do any good considering the phone call I just had with him. I'm also really not looking forward to going round there on Monday morning and getting a load of grief, but I guess I have to try, if only as something else to add to my case should it go to court. He'll probably make sure he's not there anyway but seeing as I can't work without a van, I've nowhere else to be!

goonarmy

Why buy it with a suspected fault?

bigjl

Lesson learned is if you see a fluid leak walk away and do not accept any excuse

He bought it with that fuel leak, and likely caused the damage you mentioned when he did a penny hodge on it.

Van was likely in the auction due to the running issues.

Don't listen to what people say on here about Renaults if considering a Master, they are not made by Renault anyway and are widely used by NHS Trusts doing 50/60k a year. So are the Transit but they are a bit less reliable than the competition, most Trusts that used Transits now use Sprinters, likely not a coincidence.

Almost all NHS Trusts and most Private Ambulance services use Master or the Opel, Nissan or Vauxhall equivalent, NHS use them for PTS and Private use them for 999 sub contracting work.

Expect to do a clutch every couple of years on the Master and accept they do suffer from clutch judder when abused.

Another option is an LDV aka us, use the VM engine as in the London Taxi, and need proper servicing to avoid engine problems but they are cheap and better than the price point would indicate.

Post Office in London still has a few 08 Maxus kicking about.

arcon5

Lets not forget this is a business to business transaction - meaning unlike consumer contracts a seller can contract out of aspects in place of their own terms of business. Business contracts don't have the same protections as consumer contracts.

Krayzee

"Why buy it with a suspected fault?"

Point taken but I'm not a mechanic, computers are more my thing. I am naive and ignorant when it comes to vehicles but I find out as much as I can before I look at a van so I can make as informed a decision as I possibly can (worked well didn't it.... ). I found some fluid, asked the dealer about it, and was lied to (or the dealer didn't know about it...) but I couldn't know it was a lie at the time.

I'm a regular consumer purchasing a van from an independent dealer/trader. I am a sole trader, the van will be used for social, commuting and business, it is not solely for my business.

scotsbob

I could understand why someone with limited mechanical knowledge could miss many faults but did you not notice all the faults with the lights and indicators when you viewed it?
I would think a visit to the local Trading Standards office for advice is the best you can do before you contact the seller again.

patman99

My local NHS trust uses a mix of Ford and Mercedes ambulances. So Transits cannot be that bad.

You need to remember that a vehicle is only as reliable as it's service history. A van that is maticulously serviced will give years of trouble-free use whilst a van that is only serviced when something goes wrong will more than likely require quite a lot of work done in order to get the thing back to a condition that will be acceptable for a reliable & long life.

bigjl

Issue is Patman

That even with excellent maintenance, likely every 3000 miles or 6 weeks, East of England (formerly Essex) were replacing engines every 150/200k, they were replaced with new ones and some were supplied by the Ford part place near Lakeside, think it is Allen Ford, near to Screwfix.

The Sprinters are mostly on original engines, few failures now and again, but they are more reliable than Transits.

One of the most reliable engines was the Rover V8 fitted to the LDV but the carbs could be a pain.

The Renault Master and the Vauxhall variant are actually pretty robust, they do go through clutches and gearboxes when abused.

But they are rather underrated IMHO, as are LDV products, though interestingly the Maxus is fitted with a 2.5 VM engine rather than the Ford engine in the Convoy and Pilot, was that due to reliability?

The VM engine isn't perfect and needs spot on servicing to retain reliability.

Hope the OP gets it all sorted out.

Krayzee

Just to close this thread, I was refunded my money today thankfully, although it was a whole month wasted. After he received my letter detailing the faults, he said if it failed again after his recent repairs, then he'd refund my money without issue. Well it failed again and he kept to his word. I will never know what else was wrong with it, maybe a pump failure as well, or fuse box problems, but it's done with now and I'm out looking for a van again.

Happy New Year all!