DLR fine - touched in oyster card but fare not registered

ticketboss

Hello, I'm looking for a bit of advice on an appeal. Today I was given a fine by a PTA on the DLR. I touched in my prepaid oyster at a DLR station and it beeped. A PTA checked it with the hand scanner and it had not registered me touching in.

I explained to the PTA that I was traveling down to London for work, showed them my receipt for putting £10 on my card earlier and further explained that I as I was down for work, my employer would pay for my travel so there is really no reason for me to dodge a fare. My colleague also chipped in that he saw me touch in and heard the reader beep.

The PTA said "you don't look dishonest to me and I am not implying that you are dodging a fair" (very diplomatic). Anyway the computer said no and I got the fine.

So I'm going to appeal, what I would really appreciate some advice on is how to go about proving I touched in and the oyster card reader/system is at fault (as an aside I work in IT so I am quite aware of the fallibility of technology and have been bitten by the failure of oyster touch technology once before, when I put money in the machine but it was lost between touching the machine and the ticket barrier).

I can prove state that I had no intent to or gain to be made from dodging a fare (previous journeys registered that day, proof of earlier top up and the fact I was on a work trip who will reimburse expenses so no point in fare dodging)

I could include a statement from my colleague verifying that I touched in (not sure what actual weight if any this gives the appeal).

I was able to get the exact time that my colleague touched his card in from the PTA so in theory the CCTV could be checked and I would be seen touching in (I know the DPA allows you to request footage/stills from a CCTV and they have to be provided to you). But if this is possible within the 21 day timeframe/cost effective/footage kept, who knows.

Any advice is greatly appreciated, I've read other threads on the internet but not found one like my situation so I'm interested in any ideas for how to best appeal.

Cheers

mttylad

For starters, get a witness statement from your colleague.

You cannot be held liable for a malfunction in their equipment.

TurnUpForTheBooks_2

And the DLR touching in and out equipment is indeed regularly dodgy, as is the whole system. The authorities have built too much of a skyscraper by building a "penalty fine" system like this on dodgy foundations. I would never have accepted the fine on the spot and would have created merry hell but I accept that our screwed up society means that you would likely be shunned by your colleagues if you did so in front of them.

maniacmartin

On another forum the OP admitted to hearing the reader double beep, which indicates an error and would have been accompanied by a red light. As such I think it would be pointless to try and appeal against this penalty fare.

mttylad

Only if that OP knew what the double beep and red light meant

Stigy

mttylad wrote: »

Only if that OP knew what the double beep and red light meant

It's irrelevant whether they knew what the beep meant or not (if they knew what the beep meant, that could indicate fare evasion). The double beep would have indicated a problem with the card, not TfL's equipment (lack of pre-pay credit, hot listed card etc.) meaning a Penalty Fare was correctly issued. Prepaid Oyster is a means to carry electronic credit and as such, if not tapped in at the start of the journey being made, or if the card doesn't have sufficient credit on it, then the holder of the card has no ticket, irrespective of if there's funds on the card. Also, having no ticket is a Strict Liability matter where no intent to avoid payment was evident (under Railway Byelaws), therefore ignorance also doesn't matter (you either had a ticket, or you didn't).

I'm not saying the system isn't flawed, as we all know it is, but if what's been said is true and there was a double beep, it certainly doesn't indicate a problem with the validators. Penalty Fares are intended as a deterrent against fare evasion, and as such the staff member obviously didn't believe there was any intent to avoid payment, and if they did believe intent to avoid payment was evident, they would have, or at least should have, reported the matter for possible prosecution.

wealdroam

Stigy wrote: »

It's irrelevant whether they knew what the beep meant or not (if they knew what the beep meant, that could indicate fare evasion).

The OP at least needed to know that the double beep meant that there was a problem that needed looking into immediately.

In that sense, it is of course obvious that it is highly relevant.

Stigy

wealdroam wrote: »

The OP at least needed to know that the double beep meant that there was a problem that needed looking into immediately.

In that sense, it is of course obvious that it is highly relevant.

Not sure I agree. I was emphasising that beeping twice would indicate an issue with the card, therefore it mattered not if the OP knew what it meant, it's their card and therefore their responsibility to make sure funds are on it etc. If it beeped once, jot would be different, as this indicates that the tap in was successful. Having said that, as I said earlier, this is modern technology and therefore I don't think it can be relied upon 100%...

LimeLight

This happened to me when it didn't register at a barriered station and got the fine taken off when I pointed out that there was no way of getting out other than swiping the scanner.

henrygregory

ticketboss wrote: »

Hello, I'm looking for a bit of advice on an appeal. Today I was given a fine by a PTA on the DLR. I touched in my prepaid oyster at a DLR station and it beeped. A PTA checked it with the hand scanner and it had not registered me touching in.

I explained to the PTA that I was travelling down to London for work, showed them my receipt for putting £10 on my card earlier and further explained that I as I was down for work, my employer would pay for my travel so there is really no reason for me to dodge a fare. My colleague also chipped in that he saw me touch in and heard the reader beep.

The PTA said "you don't look dishonest to me and I am not implying that you are dodging a fair" (very diplomatic). Anyway the computer said no and I got the fine.

So I'm going to appeal, what I would really appreciate some advice on is how to go about proving I touched in and the oyster card reader/system is at fault (as an aside I work in IT so I am quite aware of the fallibility of technology and have been bitten by the failure of oyster touch technology once before, when I put money in the machine but it was lost between touching the machine and the ticket barrier).

I can prove state that I had no intent to or gain to be made from dodging a fare (previous journeys registered that day, proof of earlier top up and the fact I was on a work trip who will reimburse expenses so no point in fare dodging)

I could include a statement from my colleague verifying that I touched in (not sure what actual weight if any this gives the appeal).

I was able to get the exact time that my colleague touched his card in from the PTA so in theory the CCTV could be checked and I would be seen touching in (I know the DPA allows you to request footage/stills from a CCTV and they have to be provided to you). But if this is possible within the 21 day timeframe/cost effective/footage kept, who knows.

Any advice is greatly appreciated, I've read other threads on the internet but not found one like my situation so I'm interested in any ideas for how to best appeal.

Cheers

I got caught on DLR for apparently not touching in even though my Oyster was a company one and not even mine, so I had no reason not to pay for my journey. I also used the same DLR line once every week, so had a very consistent pattern on my oyster history apart from the day it did not scan. It turned out the equipment was faulty on my return journey home.

Serco were utter scum with me and treated me like a criminal. Best of luck, I don't know what advice to give you other than what has been suggested. I suggested CCTV evidence for my 'infringement', and they finally dropped their case but sent me an admin fee for their time. Complete and utter scum, I don't use DLR to get to work now, but in the future, I will be sure to get my comeuppance.

As for Serco: Don't like them, don't trust them, have no respect for them. The way they treat honest commuters is a disgrace and I can see why some people would chose not to pay for a journey.

Don't let this spoil your Christmas, and if they give you an admin charge like they did me, tell them to stick it up their you know what.

ticketboss

henrygregory wrote: »

I got caught on DLR for apparently not touching in even though my Oyster was a company one and not even mine, so I had no reason not to pay for my journey. I also used the same DLR line once every week, so had a very consistent pattern on my oyster history apart from the day it did not scan. It turned out the equipment was faulty on my return journey home.

Serco were utter scum with me and treated me like a criminal. Best of luck, I don't know what advice to give you other than what has been suggested. I suggested CCTV evidence for my 'infringement', and they finally dropped their case but sent me an admin fee for their time. Complete and utter scum, I don't use DLR to get to work now, but in the future, I will be sure to get my comeuppance.

As for Serco: Don't like them, don't trust them, have no respect for them. The way they treat honest commuters is a disgrace and I can see why some people would chose not to pay for a journey.

Don't let this spoil your Christmas, and if they give you an admin charge like they did me, tell them to stick it up their you know what.

Hi Henry, Thank you for posting your experience, thats very useful to know. I've got a statement from my work saying that I was there on work business and one from my colleague stating that they saw me touch in. So just like your experience, it would have been a gainless venture to try and dodge the fare.

I'll be sending my appeal off now. Just had a couple of questions for you, did they phone/write to you for further info and did you pay the penalty first or wait until the outcome of your appeal?

If I get no luck with the appeal I will take it further as I'm fuming about my treatment at the hands of Serco. I don't want to say its ruined Christmas, but its certainly not contributed towards the festive spirit that the PTA couldn't show a a bit of pragmatism and I've had to put some time into finding out about other's experiences.

I'll post back about how I get on, happy new year and thank you to all for the input.