EDF making bizarre changes to monthly DD, landing me in debt

redpola

Hi,

I'm in a position where I've lived in a house for 5 years or so and switched to EDF about 3 years ago. Everything was set up for Direct Debit and seemed to be going fine. They took regular meter readings and those readings appeared on my bills. They took regular payments which looked reasonable in size. My energy usage is stable, normal and predictable.

However, I made the critical error of not paying much mind to the size of my direct debits. I occasionally got letters saying "we've changed the size of your direct debit" and I didn't really pay as much attention as I should have done.

Then, some 6 months ago I got a letter saying "We're tripling your direct debit". This took it from around £150 to £350.

Confused, I went back and re-read everything carefully. It seems that for a year EDF reduced my monthly DD from £150 to £50 before putting it back to something more appropriate. This change was somewhat obfuscated by confusing and irregular bills and DD changes (some treated gas and elec independently and some didn't).

I went back and from my bills, I took the ACTUAL readings they echoed back to me (so I know they had them), and made a graph which clearly shows my gas and electricity usage steadily increasing with no "unusual" lumps or bumps which could justify cutting my monthly payment by 2/3. So at this point I'm wondering where the change came from.

I immediately contacted them and disputed this bill, suggesting that they acted recklessly by reducing my bill by 2/3 without good reason such as my monthly usage had dropped dramatically.

I also immediately switched suppliers and as a consequence received a final bill from EDF.

The EDF bills I re-examined also contained weird bogus graphs, one suggesting I'd used a ludicrous amount of energy in the preceding term.

I asked for explanations both for the change in direct debit and for the odd and inaccurate graphs on my bill since by this point I was assuming they had made a huge calculation error at some point in my account history and reduced my DD as a result of this calculation.

Whilst they apologised for the graph and flat out admitted they couldn't explain it, I have not received a satisfactory explanation of the mathematics behind the changes to my DD and so have explained that until I do I will not be settling the bill.

On 3rd November, anxious to draw a line under the situation, I made an offer to them - I reasoned that if they had not suddenly reduced my DD by 2/3 I would have paid some £700 further towards my final bill, and so since this reduction of my DD payment was clearly an error on their part in the face of no evidence that my energy usage had decreased, I suggested that they should reduce my final bill by £700 and I would clear the balance. Whilst this feels reasonable, I expected some "wiggle room" from them and so this was my low offer as I expected them to decline it.

I've received no response to that offer. I have prompted them twice by email, and still had no response.

In the last week, it's clear they've sold my disputed debt to BCW debt collectors, who are now badgering me.

So, to summarise my situation: I've acted in good faith during my relationship with EDF. All bills were paid on time by DD. They made a ridiculous and uncalled-for (there is no evidence to say it was needed) change to my DD which would very clearly land me hugely in debt. I didn't spot the change until it was too late and it landed me hugely in debt at which point EDF tried to fix their error by tripling my DD. At this point I cancelled my account and switched. I have made an offer to settle the debt, but they have not responded. Debt collectors are now bothering me for settlement.

Whilst I accept that I was in error by not noticing the change to my DD (actually I probably assumed they'd overcharged me previously and were correcting for it) , I believe they made a catastrophic decision about my monthly repayments which they could easily have predicted would send me into debt, and that action is reckless.

I don't think it's acceptable that an energy company can manage my account in a way that means I will clearly be sent into considerable debt to them. Phrases like "best interests" come to mind.

If this goes to court, what are my chances? I've offered to pay the balance of the debt after a reasonable £700 deduction, but they're seemingly ignoring me at the moment. I obviously won't be paying the debt collection company unless they can offer me a similar reduction.

giraffe69

Did you use the energy they have billed you for? If so I don't see they have any obligation to reduce the bill. I also can't see why you would expect to win any court case.
Given they have failed to respond and also seemingly changed your direct debit for no very good reason they might be prepared to offer you a goodwill gesture but on the evidence so far they don't seem inclined to do so. As your DD was reduced the money should have remained in your account shouldn't it?

zaax

I maybe wrong, but if you are in dispute about a bill /account then it should not sent it off to the bailiffs.

I would just write to both them saying you are in dispute with the company and ask how they get to that figure. Then if send any more demanding its harassment.

redpola

zaax wrote: »

I maybe wrong, but if you are in dispute about a bill /account then it should not sent it off to the bailiffs.

I would just write to both them saying you are in dispute with the company and ask how they get to that figure. Then if send any more demanding its harassment.

I've already emailed EDF (again) a) asking for a response to my offer on 3rd November and b) asking why they've sent the debt to a debt recovery agent when we have not finished discussing how to resolve it.

I will contact the DRA when they make it necessary to do so. I am still dealing with EDF in good faith.

Honestly, the way they've (EDF) handled this is comical. Sometimes it's taken weeks to receive a response to an email, but the silence since I made an offer in an attempt to clear things up is unprecedented.

Thanks.

redpola

giraffe69 wrote: »

Did you use the energy they have billed you for? If so I don't see they have any obligation to reduce the bill. I also can't see why you would expect to win any court case.
Given they have failed to respond and also seemingly changed your direct debit for no very good reason they might be prepared to offer you a goodwill gesture but on the evidence so far they don't seem inclined to do so. As your DD was reduced the money should have remained in your account shouldn't it?

I don't dispute that I used the energy and you are correct that the money stayed in my account (or rather it was budgeted with an disappeared in other ways). However, I don't think EDF acted reasonably and responsibly in managing the size of the direct debits and their management of that was not communicated to me clearly.

The particular change (from £150 to £50 for a year before they realised and changed it back) was absolutely uncalled for and even though I didn't spot it, I should not have been in a position to have been inconvenienced by it.

I think it reasonable that being in a financial relationship of this nature with an energy company should serve to remove any sudden shocks and financial inconvenience, not the other way round. When EDF made the change to the DD they knew at the time they were going to cause me a large bill. I think that's what's unacceptable here.

As I've said, I used the energy, but I did not expect to meet with financial difficulties specifically because I entered into an arrangement to prevent that happening. EDF are the reason I am now in financial difficulties and I don't think it acceptable that they can escape without blame, or without assisting me out of those difficulties.

I can see you think I'm after some free money, which in some way is true; but I don't think I am exclusively at fault and should be the only one suffering a penalty in this situation.

I actually would have more sympathy for EDF if I were an edge-case or an unusual situation, but I'm absolutely not. I live in a completely predictable energy-using house and pay monthly by DD. It's mysterious to me how EDF can make a mess of this simple scenario.

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays

Sigh.

Dealing (properly) with energy bills is part of running a home. Energy companies should get things right 100% of the time, but alas they don't. However, there is a responsibility on the consumer to check their bills are accurate, provide timely meter readings and to check their own bank statements.

What would be the point of taking it to court? You've used the energy and therefore have to pay for it. It would appear edf informed you of their intention to change the DD, as they are obliged to.

Put it down to inexperience, and organise a fair repayment scheme. In most instances energy companies will allow you to repay the debt over the period it was accrued.

redpola

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays wrote: »

Sigh.

Dealing (properly) with energy bills is part of running a home. Energy companies should get things right 100% of the time, but alas they don't. However, there is a responsibility on the consumer to check their bills are accurate, provide timely meter readings and to check their own bank statements.

What would be the point of taking it to court? You've used the energy and therefore have to pay for it. It would appear edf informed you of their intention to change the DD, as they are obliged to.

Put it down to inexperience, and organise a fair repayment scheme. In most instances energy companies will allow you to repay the debt over the period it was accrued.

I provided readings. I checked my bills. I checked my bank statements. I assumed they were doing what was correct and right. Can you honestly say you know how much electricity and gas you use per day and that your monthly payment is "correct"?

I actually think that these days, energy companies should get it right 100% of the time. Energy bills are so much more expensive than they used to be, to get it even slightly wrong risks real hardship for some families. They should actually be better than I am at spreading my yearly energy payment over 12 monthly payment.

What would be a reasonable amount for an energy company to get you into debt by over a year through mismanaging your DD before you noticed/cared? £10? £50? £500?

That EDF have not been able to explain the mathematics behind the "unreasonable" change shows how complex this stuff is.

I don't dispute using the energy - I do dispute that EDF have dealt reasonably with my account, both financially and in terms of resolving the problem. I have acted absolutely in good faith and found myself in huge debt. Thankfully I won't need to quite go without food, but others in my position might.

In terms of their dealing with me, I expect that if I owe you a debt and can't pay, we will find an amicable solution and if we can't you will go further to recover the debt. This is how good businesses in the UK should behave. In this case EDF have jumped the gun before we even negotiated a solution.

All I've asked of them for me to pay in full is to tell me why they made the change they did and to help me to understand how we reached this point. That they can't do that makes me believe that they don't know. Would you pay a bill which couldn't be accounted for?

Your attitude seems to be that the energy companies can do what they like with your money (within reason). Mine is that if they get it wrong they should be as sorry as I am.

Kayalana99

If you checked your bills properly you would of seen the debt mounting up on only paying £50 a month.

You can't get out of paying money that you owe no matter what they did... it doesn't matter, courts don't care. You used it you pay for it.

Bluebirdman_of_Alcathays

redpola wrote: »

I provided readings. I checked my bills. I checked my bank statements. I assumed they were doing what was correct and right. Can you honestly say you know how much electricity and gas you use per day and that your monthly payment is "correct"?

Clearly not, as you didn't notice the debit building up.

I actually think that these days, energy companies should get it right 100% of the time. Energy bills are so much more expensive than they used to be, to get it even slightly wrong risks real hardship for some families. They should actually be better than I am at spreading my yearly energy payment over 12 monthly payment.

Do you get things right 100% of the time? I agree they should be better at keeping 12 even monthly payments (it's not difficult).

What would be a reasonable amount for an energy company to get you into debt by over a year through mismanaging your DD before you noticed/cared? £10? £50? £500?

I would a) spot it in my monthly bank statement, b) spot it in my quarterly energy bill and c) the money would still be there - lowering a DD just means there is more money in my account .

That EDF have not been able to explain the mathematics behind the "unreasonable" change shows how complex this stuff is.

It's not particularly complex, annual consumption (for which they have a record and you have stated hasn't changed) multiplied by tariff /12 will give an annual monthly payment.

I don't dispute using the energy - I do dispute that EDF have dealt reasonably with my account, both financially and in terms of resolving the problem. I have acted absolutely in good faith and found myself in huge debt. Thankfully I won't need to quite go without food, but others in my position might.

Agreed. I think using the going without food example is a bit emotive - as above if someone lowers my DD's, the money doesn't disappear elsewhere.

In terms of their dealing with me, I expect that if I owe you a debt and can't pay, we will find an amicable solution and if we can't you will go further to recover the debt. This is how good businesses in the UK should behave. In this case EDF have jumped the gun before we even negotiated a solution.

They should allow the debt to be repayed over the same period of time it was accrued. I've never known a supplier not to accept this.

All I've asked of them for me to pay in full is to tell me why they made the change they did and to help me to understand how we reached this point. That they can't do that makes me believe that they don't know. Would you pay a bill which couldn't be accounted for?

Why? Probably a computer malfunction. These energy companies have behemoth (normally) SAP billing systems. It doesn't excuse what happened. However, it is outstandingly simple to account for your bill. Meter reading now - meter reading when you joined edf = energy used. Less payments already made = what you owe.

Your attitude seems to be that the energy companies can do what they like with your money (within reason). Mine is that if they get it wrong they should be as sorry as I am.

I don't think they can do what they like with your money. Let's remember, they haven't taken any from you, quite the opposite. I think edf haven't covered themselves in glory, far from it! How sorry should they be? Lessons should be learned, but as with any industry, bad debt is a cost. That cost gets passed on to other consumers. Why should I pay for your inability to read an energy bill and/or bank statement?

Response above

macman

redpola wrote: »

I don't dispute that I used the energy and you are correct that the money stayed in my account (or rather it was budgeted with an disappeared in other ways). However, I don't think EDF acted reasonably and responsibly in managing the size of the direct debits and their management of that was not communicated to me clearly.

The particular change (from £150 to £50 for a year before they realised and changed it back) was absolutely uncalled for and even though I didn't spot it, I should not have been in a position to have been inconvenienced by it.

I think it reasonable that being in a financial relationship of this nature with an energy company should serve to remove any sudden shocks and financial inconvenience, not the other way round. When EDF made the change to the DD they knew at the time they were going to cause me a large bill. I think that's what's unacceptable here.

As I've said, I used the energy, but I did not expect to meet with financial difficulties specifically because I entered into an arrangement to prevent that happening. EDF are the reason I am now in financial difficulties and I don't think it acceptable that they can escape without blame, or without assisting me out of those difficulties.

I can see you think I'm after some free money, which in some way is true; but I don't think I am exclusively at fault and should be the only one suffering a penalty in this situation.

I actually would have more sympathy for EDF if I were an edge-case or an unusual situation, but I'm absolutely not. I live in a completely predictable energy-using house and pay monthly by DD. It's mysterious to me how EDF can make a mess of this simple scenario.

'I checked my bank statements'. Clearly not, or how could you not notice an extra £100 per month in your account, across 12 statements?
You then demolish your own excuse by saying that actually you 'probably did notice it', but thought they had 'reduced it due to overcharging'. By 300%?
You haven't exactly been 'inconvenienced by it-you've effectively had £100 of interest free credit from EDF each month for a year. You should have been able, 6 months ago, to negotiate a further year to repay the arrears-making two years. Instead you've paid nothing towards the arrears, the issue remains unresolved, and now they've sold the debt on.
It always amazes me how people never notice a discrepancy in their favour, but do so immediately when it works against them.
You ask 'why would you pay a bill that can't be accounted for?' But you are not disputing the actual billing-just the way they have set up your DD's.

vuvuzela

redpola wrote: »

I provided readings. I checked my bills. I checked my bank statements. I assumed they were doing what was correct and right. Can you honestly say you know how much electricity and gas you use per day and that your monthly payment is "correct"?

I actually think that these days, energy companies should get it right 100% of the time. Energy bills are so much more expensive than they used to be, to get it even slightly wrong risks real hardship for some families. They should actually be better than I am at spreading my yearly energy payment over 12 monthly payment.

What would be a reasonable amount for an energy company to get you into debt by over a year through mismanaging your DD before you noticed/cared? £10? £50? £500?

That EDF have not been able to explain the mathematics behind the "unreasonable" change shows how complex this stuff is.

I don't dispute using the energy - I do dispute that EDF have dealt reasonably with my account, both financially and in terms of resolving the problem. I have acted absolutely in good faith and found myself in huge debt. Thankfully I won't need to quite go without food, but others in my position might.

In terms of their dealing with me, I expect that if I owe you a debt and can't pay, we will find an amicable solution and if we can't you will go further to recover the debt. This is how good businesses in the UK should behave. In this case EDF have jumped the gun before we even negotiated a solution.

All I've asked of them for me to pay in full is to tell me why they made the change they did and to help me to understand how we reached this point. That they can't do that makes me believe that they don't know. Would you pay a bill which couldn't be accounted for?

Your attitude seems to be that the energy companies can do what they like with your money (within reason). Mine is that if they get it wrong they should be as sorry as I am.

OK, the reason for the DD being lowered was either :
A: Human error
B: An acknowledged by EDF crappy computer system
(http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240170222/EDF-blames-system-upgrade-for-customer-complaint-failures)

So, now you know the probable reason, and trust me, you're not going to get a better response from EDF than this one, pay the money you owe.
They won't write it off or down - why should they - you used it - so you should try asking them for a payment plan over a year (ie the period this built up) before your credit history becomes trashed for 6 years and your intransigence costs you in the long run.