Letting agent problems

thesaint

wendykearney wrote: »

It was the Letting Agent that entered the property withut permission NOT the Landlord. He hasn't been near teh property for ove 2 years according to the neighbours.
As i've been told today neighbours saw srtangers in the property last friday it looks like they did a viewing but i can't prove anything. You'd think they'd know better wouldn't you?

wendy

Thank-you for pointing that out to (iknownot)thelawnet. I hope this warns you to treat his/her advice with extreme caution, getting the basics is hard when learning the law based on browsing the interweb.

Can you confirm that your contract does not allow them access?

franklee

This viewings issue is getting a bit muddied by the latest posts which is a pity as clutton, luckylukey, olly300 and thelawnet have already given the correct advice.

wendykearney, While you are the tenant of this property no one is allowed in without your consent unless either it's an emergency or they have a court order.

You should WRITE (you need a paper trail) to the letting agent stating that you object to the property having been entered without your knowing in advance and without your permission. List the occurrences. State the conditions under which you will allow viewings (if any, you do not have to allow them), such as you wish to be present, what times are suitable, the notice you require etc. State that you will not tolerate viewings without your consent and stick to it. Should they continue then you can report it to the police as harassment and change the locks.

Now your AST may say that you must allow viewings. It may be the term is unfair and not enforceable, it depends exactly what it says. To be fair it should say viewings by appointment or something like that. Even so you still do not have to allow viewings, all you will be doing is breaching the agreement which the agent has ALREADY DONE by going in without your consent and without notice. The landlord's remedy to such a breach by you, if they dare after their agent's breaches, would be to go to court to obtain access and given what's happened I very much doubt they'd stand a chance.

Remember you are still PAYING the rent, the property is still your home. If your possessions are damaged or stolen during the visits they may not be insured. Your home contains your cat who has been distressed and who has caused damage by being locked in the wrong room. You have every right to limit viewings to when you can be present. So state your objections in writing.

As for your notice I see you've sorted that out now but for the record, now the fixed term of the AST has finished and you have been served a S21 notice, you can go anytime, but be warned the agent may not like it, see this landlordzone thread for the details:

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=251

PS. If you are not sure if the agent is still going in then can you rig up some entry detection, something by the door perhaps. I put the chain on the front door and leave by the back door. I have tape on the front door that will tear if the door is opened. Can you do something like that so you can collect proof of unauthorised entry?

thesaint

thesaint wrote: »

I would say that there is a 99% chance that the letting agent does have the right to enter the property. I suppose that you have a contract, and it is stated in it, if you signed it, you have agreed with it. If you have consented to it, no trespass has occurred.

You can withdraw this consent if you wish, but can't retrospectively do anything about what happened earlier.

You don't have to show people around, although you should try to accomodate viewings that do not inconvenience you. State in writing that you are not allowing them to show people around in your absence.

They can insist on professional cleaning, but, the question to ask is whether this will stand up in court as a fair contract term.

You can give your notice of 1 month if this is more convenient for you, they can't keep you there.

Ooh, i've been missed out on another list :rolleyes:

wendykearney

Here's the 2 rlevany paragraphs from the Tennacy Agreement..

The LL or LA may enter the property to inspect or to do repairs at any reasonable time. You will be given at least 24hrs notice unless immediate action is required in an emergency. This includes, but is not limited to, inspections to check the safty of gas and electric instaations. If you refuse to allow acess and costs are incurred to gain acess you will be liable for these costs.

The LL or LA may require access in the last month of your tenancy to allow prospective tenants or purchasers to view the property. This will only be requested at resonable hours of the day and you will be given at least 24hrs notice.

This Tenancy comes to an end if the ll forfeits it by entering prt of the property which the LL is entitled to do whenever:
1)any rent is 14days overdue even when not formally demanded
2)you have not complied with any obligations of this tenancy
3) you are adjudicated bankrupt or an interim receiver of your property is appointed.

Don't understand the last paragraph. Is it saying for example if i refused access they coud enter anyway under part 2?

It also says in the cntract i have to give a month' notice from when day of the month the tenancy started. ie the 4th but verbally on monday they said we could start it from then the 25th. Could they back out of this as its losing them £170?

Thanks for all your help guys, its much appreciated. I have in the notice letter said that i will not accept any visits without me being there because of what happened to the cat etc. I will set something up for if we both have to go out. Thanks for the idea.

wendy

thelawnet

thesaint wrote: »

Thank-you for pointing that out to (iknownot)thelawnet. I hope this warns you to treat his/her advice with extreme caution, getting the basics is hard when learning the law based on browsing the interweb.

I am not sure why you are so obsessed with my comment that the landlord had entered the property. It was an agent of the landlord, and the distinction is only relevant to you, who have confused this issue by obsessing on this irrelevancy over five posts to try to score points.

thelawnet

wendykearney wrote: »

Here's the 2 rlevany paragraphs from the Tennacy Agreement..

The LL or LA may enter the property to inspect or to do repairs at any reasonable time. You will be given at least 24hrs notice unless immediate action is required in an emergency. This includes, but is not limited to, inspections to check the safty of gas and electric instaations. If you refuse to allow acess and costs are incurred to gain acess you will be liable for these costs.

The LL or LA may require access in the last month of your tenancy to allow prospective tenants or purchasers to view the property. This will only be requested at resonable hours of the day and you will be given at least 24hrs notice.

This Tenancy comes to an end if the ll forfeits it by entering prt of the property which the LL is entitled to do whenever:
1)any rent is 14days overdue even when not formally demanded
2)you have not complied with any obligations of this tenancy
3) you are adjudicated bankrupt or an interim receiver of your property is appointed.

Don't understand the last paragraph. Is it saying for example if i refused access they coud enter anyway under part 2?

It also says in the cntract i have to give a month' notice from when day of the month the tenancy started. ie the 4th but verbally on monday they said we could start it from then the 25th. Could they back out of this as its losing them £170?

Thanks for all your help guys, its much appreciated. I have in the notice letter said that i will not accept any visits without me being there because of what happened to the cat etc. I will set something up for if we both have to go out. Thanks for the idea.

wendy

Your contract is in blatant and obvious breach of the law. While this does not mean that it is void, because it is most likely still possible to enforce the contract disregarding the unfair terms, the presence of obviously illegal terms in it will make it more difficult to argue that more marginal ones are not unfair.

In particular, the clause allowing forfeiture of the property when rent is 14 days overdue is absurdly contrary to law, and not only that but absurdly unjust - if the bank makes an error, and the rent doesn't arrive, the landlord can just repossess without even asking where it is by this term. In fact, there must be at least 2 month's rent overdue, and you need to issue formal notice to the tenant, and only after 2 weeks can you go to court, and it will then take several months.

Secondly, the landlord is NEVER entitled to repossess the property without a COURT ORDER. If he were to do so, you should go straight to the police to have him arrested.

Thirdly, not complying with obligations of a tenancy agreement is NOT a legal grounds for repossession, it is a discretionary ground, that could only in any case be granted by court order (this is ALWAYS true, you never have to leave without court order).

This contract is entirely contrary to the Housing Act 1988 (see http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880050_en_2.htm#mdiv8) in these respects. NOTHING in the contract can ever change the fact that you cannot be evicted except according to statutory authority, and following the correct procedure (which takes months due to the time to respond to the court, delay before the court date, etc.).

Given this, my advice with regards to the entry to view the property (which is what you are concerned with), is that it is certainly reasonable to refuse access when you are not at home, when you have already suffered due to entry when you have not been there. They do not have any rights to evict, as above, and assuming that you do at least allow *reasonable* access, they have no grounds for complaint.

Have a look at this
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:VGqlSEeqAFUJ:www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/adviser_resources/copy_bank/unfairtenancyterms.doc
on unfair contract terms hopefully will be helpful.

Some ways that tenancy agreements have been changed to comply can be seen here:
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft669.pdf

This is a more heavyweight version:
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft356.pdf

If you refused access entirely, it would be impossible to prove any loss, so it would be hard to sue, and the contractual basis for doing so is unclear, but by granting reasonable access you avoid this possibility.

thelawnet

btw, you might want to verify that the notice to quit is valid. What date does your tenancy run from and too? When does it expire? When was the first day of the contract? Is there a break clause in the contract?

olly300

wendykearney wrote: »

Here's the 2 rlevany paragraphs from the Tennacy Agreement..

The LL or LA may enter the property to inspect or to do repairs at any reasonable time. You will be given at least 24hrs notice unless immediate action is required in an emergency. This includes, but is not limited to, inspections to check the safty of gas and electric instaations. If you refuse to allow acess and costs are incurred to gain acess you will be liable for these costs.

This clause as written is illegal.

By law you have to let the National Grid gas or electrical people and emergency services in if it is an emergency and there is a risk of you blowing up, causing fire etc to the entire street. You don't have to let the landlord or their agent in at the same time but if they are the ones who can only let the emergency people in fair enough.

If the landlord wants access for other repairs they need to ask your permission and you don't have to give it regardless of what it says in the tenancy agreement. The landlord can then take you to court over it but until a court rules you don't have to let them in. There was a court case over this clause in a tenancy agreement.

The LL or LA may require access in the last month of your tenancy to allow prospective tenants or purchasers to view the property. This will only be requested at resonable hours of the day and you will be given at least 24hrs notice.

This clause is fine as long as they stick to it.

This Tenancy comes to an end if the ll forfeits it by entering prt of the property which the LL is entitled to do whenever:
1)any rent is 14days overdue even when not formally demanded
2)you have not complied with any obligations of this tenancy
3) you are adjudicated bankrupt or an interim receiver of your property is appointed.

Don't understand the last paragraph. Is it saying for example if i refused access they coud enter anyway under part 2?

Yes. However if they do you just call the police and say you are being broken into. The police would then have a quiet word with the landlord/letting agent and tell them to go get a court order. As lawnet said this clause is illegal.

It also says in the cntract i have to give a month' notice from when day of the month the tenancy started. ie the 4th but verbally on monday they said we could start it from then the 25th. Could they back out of this as its losing them £170?

They can. I suggest you write a letter to them stating who said that, the date and the approximate time. Hand deliver the letter or fax it AND send an email as well. Say whether you agree with it in the letter, ask them to give you a written reply within 5 days if they disagree. Then if they don't reply just leave it alone. They then have no legal claim to your deposit. If they do retain your deposit for this reason you can take them to court and would likely win as you were reasonable.


Thanks for all your help guys, its much appreciated. I have in the notice letter said that i will not accept any visits without me being there because of what happened to the cat etc. I will set something up for if we both have to go out. Thanks for the idea.

wendy

Most tenancy agreements I have signed have been standard two page ones which leave lots of things open to interpretation. However they don't contain illegal clauses and the entire thing is based on reasonableness. Some contracts which I've read of other peoples' (mostly foriegn work colleagues) are 12 plus pages long which means that some of the clauses if looked through could be/are illegal or unfair.

wendykearney

The initial tenancy ran for 6mths from 4th dec then it went onto rolling monthly. The section 21 is dated 11th of june. The property was marketed mid week last week whilst we were still on holiday and unaware of what was happening. The contract says notice must be one calendar month from the day teh tenancy started ie 4th. Should i email them and check that the info i was given on monday was correct? I did ask them to confirm how much rent they required for the last month so i could make sure they got it before its due ie 4th july. If they give me this info does that mean they have accepted my notice? A laso staed that i would not accept any inspections etc without being present and i must confirm either in writing or verbally that i am, happy with any appointment made and they could not presume consent if they did not hear from me as they did whilst i was away despite knowing i was away and so was not even aware of the appointment..

I have no intention of dening all access but as my hubby works nights and i have a young son i do not see why it should disrupt my household unnecessary. Afterall they weren't concerned about leaving us with no hot water for weeks on end or very little lighting because of faulty electrics, which took 2 months to be fixed. This was only done when council threatened to get involved.

wendy

olly300

Wendy in your letter don't ask them just tell them what was said and say you agree to it.


Also try and do everything by letter and email. I know it's more hassle but as letting agents seem to love taking tenants deposits for any reason they can you need to leave a paper trail that cannot be argued with. Lots of people this includes companies state they haven't received emails.

check your PM's in a minute.