MSE News: New Scottish bankruptcy law 'will cause misery', debt groups say

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  • moneyistooshorttomention
    moneyistooshorttomention Posts: 17,940 Forumite
    edited 19 December 2013 at 2:44PM
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    That's good news isn't it? and not "Shock horror those poor bankrupts".

    Wrong slant to story.

    What about the poor people who are left out of pocket with bankrupts permanently "standing on their legal rights" after a bankruptcy is "discharged" as an excuse to never pay back what they owe?

    Far less sympathy for bankrupts please (and certainly none whatsoever for people who go bankrupt more than once) and far more sympathy for the "victims" on the receiving end of being owed money.

    I know people who are victims of people having gone bankrupt that are still carrying round the knowledge in their heads quite some years after the event that that person owes them money and they don't just require it back on principle (ie that its their money and not the bankrupts) they actually need their own money back again and the only recourse they have is to hope the bankrupt develops a conscience at some point and finds a way to pay them back. So...less talk of a fresh start for bankrupts please...as their victims are often still trying to get their life back on the track the bankrupt disrupted.
  • alastairq
    alastairq Posts: 5,030 Forumite
    edited 19 December 2013 at 6:55PM
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    ...why not tell that to RBS, for example?

    The message doesn't seem to be getting through.....if someone petitions BR, it is because they are insolvent....simples.

    This means, any debts cannot be paid..simples.Since we are not endowed with a crystal ball each, neither can we state, categorically, that a debt might get repaid ''at some point in the future''.

    BAnkruptcy means, creditors CAN get their 'pound of flesh'...they ain't gonna get what isn't there, are they?

    To counter your lack of empathy for those who have [had to , or been] petitioned for Bankruptcy is only matched by my more obvious lack of empathy for creditors..knowing creditors as I do.

    Yes, bankruptcy can have a knock-on effect.....and yes, bankruptcy also solves debt issues...and yes, bankruptcy does offer the full protection of the Law from creditors..as so it should.


    So....if considering extending a line of credit, do your homework, and consider what might be the consequences?

    Before moral views are bandied about, it is as well to consider how easily our own financial worlds can come crashing down around our ears?

    It takes but a blink of an eye to turn from hero to zero.

    And when that happens, you'll all be seeking a empathetic ear.
    No, I don't think all other drivers are idiots......but some are determined to change my mind.......
  • moneyistooshorttomention
    moneyistooshorttomention Posts: 17,940 Forumite
    edited 19 December 2013 at 8:23PM
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    I tend to feel that people who have gone bankrupt will pretty soon Tell the World if its OTHER peoples fault (ie not their own) - as in "If he/she hadn't done the dirty on me...then my own circumstances wouldn't have then impacted back on other people in turn".

    I am well aware that I would virtually take out a full page ad in the local paper if OTHER people had caused me to go bankrupt to make it plain that it wasn't my fault and list the person/people that had caused the situation. Hence, when people go bankrupt and don't list off causative factor people then others are going to wonder whether they neglected their responsibilities and spent money they knew they didn't have.

    Maybe I've missed something...but I know that I personally took on debt (ie back a few years ago...when things didn't look as bad as now). This debt was taken on pretty much for necessity purposes only and was set at deliberately pretty low and manageable levels. Such that it would clearly only be through other peoples fault if it all went Tits Up (eg an employer sacking me and not being able to find another employer) and I would have named the Causative Factor if that had happened.

    I do think people need to be very clearly aware in their own mind what is a quite definitely manageable level of debt (bar Other People playing very much the dirty on them...eg those employers) and what is obviously too high a level of debt and/or taken out for luxuries etc. Have I missed something...but I have never yet seen any posts saying "I only took out a very modest level of debt (eg because a necessity item like a cooker had gone wrong) and I knew I could manage it, but my employer then sacked me". Now that I would sympathise with...hence I don't understand why I have never seen a bankrupt say "It was someone else's fault and I can prove it...." and then give the facts/figures to prove that they personally HAD been responsible money managers.
  • alastairq
    alastairq Posts: 5,030 Forumite
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    Hence, when people go bankrupt and don't list off causative factor people then others are going to wonder whether they neglected their responsibilities and spent money they knew they didn't have.

    The massive minority of people in this country are 'spending money they don't have'....

    MAybe they think they can manage their debt levels [mortgage, etc]...this would be the 'moral ' stance.

    But, remove or reduce the 'means' whereby management of debt is applied...change the personal circumstances, for example.....and very quickly, those best [moral] intentions become overwhelmed.

    We are all 'responsible' to a greater or lesser degree for our past, present & future actions.

    But for everyone to realise their true responsibilities, be prepared to remove completely, all those influences, social & financial, that are applied to each & everyone of us to relinquish our responsibilities.

    Remove the pressures Society itself places upon each & every one of us...



    but of course, that would never happen, would it.....imagine DFS being banned from advertising?
    No, I don't think all other drivers are idiots......but some are determined to change my mind.......
  • kepar
    kepar Posts: 1,297 Forumite
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    So what you are proposing then is that no-one could take a mortgage on.

    Oh and by the way it was my fault that I went br 100%, well maybe I could blame a few horses and jockeys but all in all it was my fault.
  • wharty
    wharty Posts: 426 Forumite
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    kepar wrote: »
    So what you are proposing then is that no-one could take a mortgage on.

    Oh and by the way it was my fault that I went br 100%, well maybe I could blame a few horses and jockeys but all in all it was my fault.

    That made me laugh. Good on you.
  • moneyistooshorttomention
    moneyistooshorttomention Posts: 17,940 Forumite
    edited 20 December 2013 at 8:39AM
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    Most of us (including me) don't regard a mortgage as debt. We regard it as what we are paying for our homes instead of rent. A home is a necessity in anyone's eyes.

    I will leave it at that, as I'm aware how many "politically correct" people frequent these Boards and my views on this are unfashionable at the moment.
  • wharty
    wharty Posts: 426 Forumite
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    Most of us (including me) don't regard a mortgage as debt. We regard it as what we are paying for our homes instead of rent. A home is a necessity in anyone's eyes.

    I will leave it at that, as I'm aware how many "politically correct" people frequent these Boards and my views on this are unfashionable at the moment.

    Your right, a home is a must for everybody BUT you don't have to own it or rent it. You could stay at home with your parents?? Is that what you would like everyone to do until they can save to buy outright, so we can keep our outgoings/debts manageable? A house IS a liablility. It is NOT an asset until the day the bank gives you the deeds. Even when you have paid your mortgage off it's still a liability. Council tax maintainance, gas, electric, water etc. Your house is an asset on the banks balance sheet.

    So. If a mortgage is all you say we are allowed "within our means" (baring in mind the market decides on house prices and my wages) then what happens if I lose my job? I cant pay my council tax, gas, electric etc. I am made bankrupt or forced to sell my home to pay these debts?

    I am bankrupt. I made myself bankrupt when i lost my job and couldn't find another one. I had never missed a payment to any of my creditors until AFTER my bankruptcy. The day i went bankrupt i had over 8k in my bank account. I could have held on for 3 or 4 months using my savings to live but I knew I was insolvent.

    At no point have I blamed anybody for my bankruptcy (not even myself). I wouldn't as you put it "put an advert in the local paper and blame the other person"

    Tell me, how long could you manage to pay your bills without an income? You said you took out debt a few years back, could you have paid your debts if you had lost all your income?

    Maybe what we should be doing is living within "job seekers allowance means"? That way if we lose our jobs the Job seekers allowance will pay our bills?

    I think you need to get of your high horse, knock that chip of your shoulder and try and be a bit more understanding of each bankruptcy and the circumstances that led to it.
  • debt_doctor
    debt_doctor Posts: 4,595 Forumite
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    edited 20 December 2013 at 3:05PM
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    Most of us (including me) don't regard a mortgage as debt. We regard it as what we are paying for our homes instead of rent. A home is a necessity in anyone's eyes.

    I will leave it at that, as I'm aware how many "politically correct" people frequent these Boards and my views on this are unfashionable at the moment.
    As stated very well by Wharty, a mortgage is a liability and its associated costs are further liabilities.

    The vast majority of those I see in my job have simply fallen on hard times, caused by any of the modern life pressures of relationship breakdown, accident, illness, unemployment - I also see a fair few who thought it could never happen to them.


    Very few insolvents that I see claim it was all someone else's fault - they can see where things started to go wrong, but either were, or felt, powerless to do anything about it.


    One day, for some reason, you may find your self not in a position to pay your mortgage. If that goes unchecked, you could well end up with possession of your property by the lender.


    You would then have stark choices of getting your self re housed and re building your life. At some point afterwards, insolvency might result to deal with a shortfall- as properties boom and bust,- and you can't control the housing market.


    You will find that most bankrupts, pre the existence of the issues that brought their life down, were excellent payers of credit. People who have held squeaky clean credit ratings by never missing a payment in 25 years - how do you think some people get so much credit debt? - it's because of their superb track record.
    And of course the banks love them, their fellow fiscal buddies who have provided multi thousands in interest over the years and kept the bank workers in a job.
    But, oh when it goes wrong, those same people are suddenly financial delinquents, hounded by the creditors, refusing reasonable offers from their former financial chums.


    As for morals, I would rather, any day, associate myself with good people who have fallen on hard times rather than sleazy, crooked banks, who brought the financial world to its knees and still enjoy its fruits, whilst the poorest in society pay for the mess the banks have created.


    DD
    Debt Doctor, Debt caseworker, Citizens' Advice Bureau .
    Impartial debt advice services: Citizens Advice Bureau Find your local CAB *** National Debtline - Tel: 0808 808 4000*** BSC No. 100 ***
  • JCS1
    JCS1 Posts: 5,294 Forumite
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    I have to agree with Debt Debtor.

    For the vast majority of the cases I dealt with where when people took out credit and could afford repayments. Then something happened, such as ill health, redundancy, relationship breakdown - leading to household income reducing drastically.

    There are of course people who use the system to their advantage, but these are very few.
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