Old Council Tax From 2012 Haunting Me!! HELP

00ec25

Sharleen__82 wrote: »

I just checked my old tennancy agreement and it is a single tennancy agreement that each of us signed.

Again if I had not been so niaeve at the time I could have known this was not right. But not having rented before I shall have to take this as a life lesson.

It not a question of it being right or wrong. It was probably inappropriate for your circumstances since you were not a homogenous group of people/friends setting out to live together in a shared house. That said there are probably more of that type of situation in the vacancy adverts than genuine single room lets in multiple occupation property since what sets out as a group of friends deciding to share costs often changes when one person leaves as they move on in their live but the other 4 want to stay and need a replacement who initially will be the outsider but may become a friend in time


Don't forget there are plenty of such groups with a single tenancy agreement. They then have to develop the sort of relationships/responsibilities you set out for shared payment of bills, nothing wrong with that but as you say if there is no common bond between them then the likelihood of someone mucking around such as happened with you is that much higher

John_Pierpoint

I agree it is probably too late to play the HMO card and dump the Council Tax back on the landlord where it sounds like it should have been.
If I remember correctly the landlord is allowed to make a small profit on reselling the Council Tax to the individual occupants.

Being an HMO introduces all sorts of other expenses for a landlord especially on the fire front. Not only do these make the place look like an institution and destroy period detail, they introduce potential serious costs for turning it back into a normal home.

Sharleen__82

CIS wrote: »

With one caveat - since the regs were altered in 1995 the property is also a HMO if it's adapted or constructed for multiple occupancy (regardless of the rent sitauation)

Would this include converting a lounge room into a bedroom on the ground floor? And adding locks to bedrooms with keys only for the tennant of that room?

macman

Using a lounge as a bedroom does not make a property an HMO.

John_Pierpoint

The locks might - but perhaps not on ground floor where would be victim can jump out of the window - Oh s*d it that is toughened glass and locked too.

00ec25

Sharleen__82 wrote: »

Would this include converting a lounge room into a bedroom on the ground floor? And adding locks to bedrooms with keys only for the tennant of that room?

legal precedent established in 1998 states that where locks are fitted on bedroom doors this means the property has been adapted to become a HMO for council tax purposes.

PEARSON v LONDON BOROUGH OF HARINGEY HC 1998
In this the judge ruled:
"the fact that rooms have keys seems to me to be nothing to the point. Many houses, perhaps most, have bedrooms which can be locked." and therefore the property was not an HMO

However, HAYES v HUMBERSIDE VALUATION TRIBUNAL AND KINGSTON-UPON-HULL CITY COUNCIL effectively overturned the Pearson case as in this the judgement was:
"The High Court found that the phrase “constructed or adapted” did not require that a determination as to the intended use of the premises was required. Further, the presence of internal locks on doors in the premises was an adaptation making the dwelling suitable for occupation by more than one household. The taxpayer appealed to the Court of Appeal; his appeal was dismissed."

what that means is the conversion of a lounge (or any other room) into a bedroom does not make it a council tax HMO. But the fitting of locks to bedroom doors does make it a council tax HMO

critically, because the decision went to the court of appeal, this has now created an overarching legal precedent which lower courts (ie all high courts) and the valuation tribunal (see below) must abide by

The situation is nonetheless still grey , for example read the guidance issued by Leeds Council in which it recognises the legal precedent but them muddies the water by referring back to the nature of the tenancy agreement. You will note that the Leeds guide http://www.leeds.gov.uk/docs/Houses%20in%20Multiple%20Occupation.pdf does not use the OR word when considering the nature of the building versus the nature of the tenancy agreements. As CIS has noted earlier in this thread, the change to regulations in 1995 changed the wording from and to or. The difference is very significantsince it means the two "tests" are independent of each other and you do not have to meet both for it to be a HMO

Obviously this will be a serious can of worms for you to resolve on your own - good luck with it. make sure you quote the HAYES case when writing to the council so they remember where to look. You may also suggest they refer to the Valuation Tribunal manual which is where I got the above extracts from. All disputes over CT assessment must initially go to the VT before they escalate to court (where permitted).
http://www.valuationtribunal.gov.uk/pdfs/CT_Manual_Sept_08.pdf

Sharleen__82

Thank you 00ec25 and everyone else.

You have all been really, truly helpful.

I am going to take all of your points and information and carfully construct a strong email to the council.

I feel from all you valuable input it is worth a go.

Hopefully, I will at least be able to get the charges taken off and a payment plan sorted.

As well as the HMO issue I have the fact that they had my forwarding address, but did not send me any communications from March to December this year.

Thank you all so much and I will update this thread with the response from the council.

Sharleen__82

Hi All,

So this was my letter to the council;

Dear Sir / Madame,

I am writing to you in regards to a bill I have received for council tax for the property of XXX. I lived in shared rented accommodation with 4 other housemates.

The account number in question is XXX.

Due to having so many people living in the household and people constantly moving in and out – there were several different accounts that had my name attached to.

I received this bill in December 2013, and I moved out of the property in XX Road on 28th March 2013.

I would like to contest this bill as when I moved out of the property in March 2013 I contact Lambeth Council and made sure that all Council Tax was paid in full and up to date before I moved out. The payment reference numbers of payments that I made at the end of February 2013 and beginning of March 2013 on account number XXX are;
XXX for the sum of £290
XXX for the sum of £290
XXX for the sum of £96.66
There are other payments that I have made, evidence of which is attached on a copy of my bank statement. From Nov 2012 to March 2013 I made in total £970 of payments to Lambeth Council on my own!! As far as I was concerned this covered the amount that was still owing from 2012 and replaced with account XXX as explained below...


Once these payments had been made and the account brought up to date, I called Lambeth Council and informed them that I was leaving the property, and gave them my forwarding address. I know that this was recorded as I received a letter to that address regarding a refund that could be claimed for overpayment. Whilst on the phone to the advisor at the Council clearly checked and double checked that I was all paid up and clear across all accounts that my name was attached to. They assured me that I was fully paid and up to date. So I was happy.

Then I receive this bill out of the blue to my mother’s address, which I gave the council as my forwarding address. I have since moved on and live elsewhere, but still pick up my mail from my Mum’s house when I visit.

The bill for account number XXX is for the sum of £456.44 including £127 of court fees. This is the FIRST communication that I have received from you since April 2013 and the letter regarding a refund for overpayment.

As you can imagine I was deeply shocked and concerned to receive this as when I spoke to your advisors in March they assured me that I was all paid in full.

You have had my forwarding address since March 2013 and I have not received ONE letter, bill, or anything at all from Lambeth Council. If I had I would have sorted it out at the time and avoided extra charges being added.

When I called the Council in December to find out what was going on he stated that this was Council Tax from 2012, and I was being chased because they found my details, and they could not find the other two tenants named on the bill, XXX and XXX. I do not know where these people now live and have no contact details for them at all. These were just housemates and not people that I knew previously.

There were issues with Council tax in 2012. Two tenants, XXX and XXX were in charge of paying the council tax for the 2012 period. We were all paying them in good faith, and it seems that they did not pay all of the money to the council as they should have and hiding the letters from us as we worked and they did not. They moved out of the property in August 2012. This deceit was discovered by myself in October 2012 and I called the council immediately and explained to them what was going on. They told me that they would give us a discount and close that account (I don’t know that account number, I no longer have the paperwork) and set up a new account with a payment plan number XXXX.

This was fine and we started paying regular payments again and everything was fine. Then another housemate XXX was not working and started claiming Council Tax Benefit. She took over dealings with the council at this stage as she wanted to sort out the benefit etc. This is when I believe that yet another account number was generated to take over from the old account. This was XXX. So as far as I was concerned and told, each account was replaced with another to bring them all up to date. So as far as I was aware this included what was owed from the 2012 period where we were given a discount, and I was never told otherwise, and never received any letters to say that there was a further account outstanding. Before December I have never heard of this account number XXX, even though you had my forwarding address since March 2013. I also never received any letters regarding this account number at all during the time I was living in the XX Road property. I only received letters regarding XXX and XXX. If this account XXX was in arrears from 2012, why did I not receive any letters or bills about it whilst I was still living in the property all through 2012 and until March 2013?

Obviously I was very concerned at receiving this bill and the prospect of having to pay more for council tax that I have already paid! So I sought advice and did an awful lot of research into this matter.

The advice that I received states that with so many people living in the household with people moving in and out quite regularly that this property should have been classed as a Household of Multiple Occupation. I wish that I had known about this at the time as I would have spoken to my Landlord about this. I cannot quite believe that with so many people named on the Council Tax bill and the many many times that I was in communication with the council and telling them about the problems I was having with housemates that none of your advisors even mentioned to me that I should look into whether this should be a HMO, or to speak to my landlord about it! The council failed to recognise that it should have been a HMO. The house meets the criteria in that there were 5 bedrooms across 3 floors. Each rooms was rented by an individual who were NOT friends and NOT related. The property was also adapted for multiple occupancy as each room had locks on the doors and keys were only given to the tenant of that room.

‘Under the new legislation contained in the Housing Act 2004, there is a new definition of what is House in Multiple Occupation. The main change is that shared houses (such as student shared houses) now become HMOs. Although special legislation applies to properties which are HMOs, notall HMOs have to be licensed. Only those larger HMOs (3-storeys or more with 5 or more occupants) require aMandatory HMO Licence. Local authorities have power to impose Additional HMO Licensingon other types of HMOs. As yet there are no areas designated for additional HMO licensing anywhere in the Country. This section is designed to help you decide whether or not a property is an HMO. There is a separate section dealing with those HMOs which requireMandatory HMO Licencesand those where Additional HMO Licensing applies. There are also provisions for those properties which were registered under HMO registration schemes under the old legislation. These are dealt with in a separate section on what is known as Transitional/Deemed Additional Licensing’ (http://www.rla.org.uk/landlord/guides/housing_act/docs/all/what_is_an_hmo.shtml)

Ultimately, a brief overview is that a HMO will be a property "occupied" by "more than one household" and "more than two people" who "share" one or more basic amenities and it could include shared houses, some self-contained flats and bedsits. (http://www.comfortlettings.co.uk/blog/2012/08/16/definition-of-an-hmo-house-in-multiple-occupation)

The tenancy agreement that we had was a single tenancy agreement, the wrong type (again if I had known this at the time I would have made sure that it was changed) - you had a joint and several tenancy agreement meaning that under the "hierarchy of liability" the occupants are liable for CT and the council can come after any one of them for the whole amount (incl arrears from previous tenants). HOWEVER, this still should NOT exclude it from being classed as a HMO as since the regulations were altered in 1995 the property is also a HMO if it's adapted or constructed for multiple occupancy (regardless of the rent situation). I also have proof that the landlord was charging us all separate and individual room rates and I have included this as an attachment.

Legal precedent established in 1998 states that where locks are fitted on bedroom doors this means the property has been adapted to become a HMO for council tax purposes.

HAYES v HUMBERSIDE VALUATION TRIBUNAL AND KINGSTON-UPON-HULL CITY COUNCIL effectively overturned the Pearson case as in this the judgement was:
"The High Court found that the phrase “constructed or adapted” did not require that a determination as to the intended use of the premises was required. Further, the presence of internal locks on doors in the premises was an adaptation making the dwelling suitable for occupation by more than one household. (http://www.valuationtribunal.gov.uk/...al_Sept_08.pdf)

Critically, because the decision went to the court of appeal, this has now created an overarching legal precedent which lower courts (ie all high courts) and the valuation tribunal (see below) must abide by.



I strongly feel that in February / March 2013 I made every effort to ensure that all Council Tax was paid in full and up to date before I left the property. I paid in total £970 of my own money to make sure it was all up to date. I made regular contact with your advisors and they assured me that I was fully paid and up to date. Considering I lived with 4 other people I feel that I have paid over the odds already and should not have to pay more. I should have heard from you regarding this BEFORE December 2013 when I had provided you with a forwarding address, and even when I was still living in the property until end of March 2013. I do not feel that I should have to pay ANY charges or court fees. Furthermore, in light of my research I believe that the Landlord should be liable for this bill and not myself solely as the property is clearly a HMO and was a HMO for the entire duration that I was living in the property.

I hope you will assist in coming to a fair resolution to this.

Yours Faithfully,

Sharleen


And this is their response;

Dear Miss Harlow,

Thank you for your email dated 28/12/2013.

Our records show a copy of a tenancy agreement signed by you and 5 others on 22nd July 2012 stating that you were let the whole of the property known as XXX. It also states that you and your fellow tenants are “to pay promptly to the authorities to whom they are due, council tax and outgoings...”. As such, this property was not listed as a house in multiple occupancy (HMO) at the time. However, after an inspection was carried out on 26/04/2013, it was confirmed that from 01/08/2012, the property was to be listed as an HMO. You should have signed a new single tenancy agreement at this point.

After reviewing your council tax accounts, I can confirm that you remain liable to pay this balance. I have removed the court costs as a gesture of goodwill as we were already aware of your forwarding address but did not issue the relevant correspondence there. The remaining balance of £329.44 is due and payable by you, Mr XXX and Mr XXX, who are all jointly and severally liable. If possible, you may wish to contact Mr XX and Mr XX to arrange payment of your 'shares' of the council tax between you, however no such private arrangements will alter the joint and several nature of council tax liability. If you do hold any contact details for your former house mates, please let us know so that they may be billed individually.

Regards.

Miss K
Council Tax Recovery Officer (Capita)

So at least I have managed to get the court charges off!! I am happy about that.

I do think it is cheeky that they classed it as a HMO from 01/08/2012 - and they are charging me from 01/04/2012 to 01/08/2012 which is the EXACT date that they class it as a HMO from!! So why was it not a HMO before that date?

Should I try to arge this further? What do you all think?

Also I would like to set up a payment plan as I have household bills to pay like everyone else in my new and current address.

How would I propose this to them. And will thes go on my credit file? They did say that they had my address and I dont want problems in the future when I try to get a mortgage etc.

Your comments and help will be greatly appreciated!!!