Old Council Tax From 2012 Haunting Me!! HELP

00ec25

Sharleen__82 wrote: »

I have checked the link you sent to me and the property always had five tennants or more over three floors. One room downstairs, three rooms on the first floor and a room plus sperate toilet and sink room in the loft. So I think it should meet the criteria stated to be a HMO.

It depends:
- I cant see where you have confirmed your tenancy status. Did you as a group have a single tenancy agreement with the LL so you in fact rented the entire property as a group and were thus jointly and severally liable for the rent? In that case it is not an HMO even if it is 3 storeys and 5 occupants
- on the other hand, if you each rented your own room and thus had individual tenancy agreements which gave you access to shared common parts (kitchen, bathroom etc), then it is an HMO and furthermore with it being 3&5 it is a mandatory HMO which means that it must be registered with the council by law. If the LL has not done so then the council can prosecute the LL and the fine can be up to £50,000 as this is considered to be a serous offence. The reason being that 3 storey properties with 5 separate households living in it carries high risk rating and requires the LL to install many extra safety features to protect the occupants. The council will then inspect to ensure this work is adequate and will issue a licence to the LL

so your position is somewhat different to #1
EITHER
a) you had a joint and several tenancy agreement meaning that under the "hierarchy of liability" (google it) the occupants are liable for CT and the council can come after any one of them for the whole amount (incl arrears from previous tenants)
OR
b) you lived in a council tax HMO where, under legislation, the LL (and only the LL) is liable for CT. On that basis the council should refund any tax collected from any and all occupants to date and collect the tax from the LL, backdating this to the date it first became an HMO. The council may not want to do this of course as it risks them having a problem collecting a very large sum from the LL but that is the correct legal position. the LL will of course hate it since he would then either have to foot the bill himself or try to collect the extra money from previous tenants - whether he can depends on the wording of each persons tenancy agreement, if the TA is silent on council tax then he can't and he is facing a large bill from his own pocket

AND
c) if its a mandatory HMO and the LL has failed to register the property as an HMO (and all such licenced properties should be listed on your council website so its easy for you to check) you have a very powerful threat to hold against the LL should you wish to negotiate who pays what. Alternatively of course you should do the correct legal thing and report it to the council anyway

Sharleen__82

So if I write all this to the council, if they don't agree can they still try to make me pay?

Worth a try at least, as it should clearly have been a HMO.

00ec25

Sharleen__82 wrote: »

So if I write all this to the council, if they don't agree can they still try to make me pay?

Worth a try at least, as it should clearly have been a HMO.

you have not confirmed your tenancy agreement status so it is far from certain it is an HMO

Sharleen__82

I just checked my old tennancy agreement and it is a single tennancy agreement that each of us signed.

Again if I had not been so niaeve at the time I could have known this was not right. But not having rented before I shall have to take this as a life lesson.

I will just have to concentrate on trying to get the charges taken off and then pay up.

Just feels very unfair - but life isn't fair is it.

John_Pierpoint

00ec25 wrote: »

It depends:
- I cant see where you have confirmed your tenancy status. Did you as a group have a single tenancy agreement with the LL so you in fact rented the entire property as a group and were thus jointly and severally liable for the rent? In that case it is not an HMO even if it is 3 storeys and 5 occupants
- on the other hand, if you each rented your own room and thus had individual tenancy agreements which gave you access to shared common parts (kitchen, bathroom etc), then it is an HMO and furthermore with it being 3&5 it is a mandatory HMO which means that it must be registered with the council by law. If the LL has not done so then the council can prosecute the LL and the fine can be up to £50,000 as this is considered to be a serous offence. The reason being that 3 storey properties with 5 separate households living in it carries high risk rating and requires the LL to install many extra safety features to protect the occupants. The council will then inspect to ensure this work is adequate and will issue a licence to the LL

so your position is somewhat different to #1
EITHER
a) you had a joint and several tenancy agreement meaning that under the "hierarchy of liability" (google it) the occupants are liable for CT and the council can come after any one of them for the whole amount (incl arrears from previous tenants)
OR
b) you lived in a council tax HMO where, under legislation, the LL (and only the LL) is liable for CT. On that basis the council should refund any tax collected from any and all occupants to date and collect the tax from the LL, backdating this to the date it first became an HMO. The council may not want to do this of course as it risks them having a problem collecting a very large sum from the LL but that is the correct legal position. the LL will of course hate it since he would then either have to foot the bill himself or try to collect the extra money from previous tenants - whether he can depends on the wording of each persons tenancy agreement, if the TA is silent on council tax then he can't and he is facing a large bill from his own pocket

AND
c) if its a mandatory HMO and the LL has failed to register the property as an HMO (and all such licenced properties should be listed on your council website so its easy for you to check) you have a very powerful threat to hold against the LL should you wish to negotiate who pays what. Alternatively of course you should do the correct legal thing and report it to the council anyway

I hope you are wrong, because this law was brought in, after some tragedies.
These where deaths in the sort of accommodation occupied by a floating population of "student" type people, who probably hardly knew each other's names; what ever the paperwork might have said about forming "one household". Nobody was head of the household and where everyone is responsible for everything; nobody is responsible for anything.

A prehistoric electric fuse has blown? Just wrap it in several layers of silver paper and jam it back in place?

Councils should have responsibilities as well as rights.

Sharleen__82

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

I hope you are wrong, because this law was brought in, after some tragedies.
These where deaths in the sort of accommodation occupied by a floating population of "student" type people, who probably hardly knew each other's names; what ever the paperwork might have said about forming "one household". Nobody was head of the household and where everyone is responsible for everything; nobody is responsible for anything.

A prehistoric electric fuse has blown? Just wrap it in several layers of silver paper and jam it back in place?

Councils should have responsibilities as well as rights.

Thats exactly how it was. I seemed to be the only one concerned with paying bills, I was always trying to chase them for money to pay bills. There was a lot wrong with the house, the boiler was a health hazard!! And now this has happened because the two students ran off with my money and they can't find the other two men who are liable.

But this will not interest the council. Hopefully if I can at least get the charges dropped I will be able to pay less.

Sharleen__82

So just to confirm so I am clear.

I cannot go in with the HMO argument because I had the wrong kind of tennancy agreement?

Is this the case?

lincroft1710

If Sharleen, CIS, 00ec25, John Pierpoint and Lincroft decide they will rent a house together and enter into a tenancy agreement with a landlord to rent the whole house, the house is not a HMO for CT purposes.

But if they each rent a room from the LL with an individual tenancy agreement then it is a HMO.

CIS

the house is not a HMO for CT purposes.

With one caveat - since the regs were altered in 1995 the property is also a HMO if it's adapted or constructed for multiple occupancy (regardless of the rent sitauation)

00ec25

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

I hope you are wrong, because this law was brought in, after some tragedies.

John as you know there is a difference between being an HMO for council tax purposes and being an HMO for the purposes of licencing (ie safety features). You can still be an HMO even if no licence is required but in that case no one checks your compliance with the installation of HMO safety features

where there are 5 households in a 3 (or more) storey building, then it is a mandatory HMO and must be licensed so will be checked

where there are not, then it is down to each individual council whether they have implemented selective licensing under which powers the council defines the "size" of property which it requires to be licenced and so are checkable.

If the council has not implemented selective licensing, there is nonetheless a responsibility placed on the LL to confirm what, if any, safety features are required even if no formal licence is needed because any property with 3 or more households (ie not renting the whole property as a single group) will be an HMO under the HMO legislation and so should meet certain standards, but may not have to hold a formal licence from the respective council confirming its compliance with those standards.