Old Council Tax From 2012 Haunting Me!! HELP

Sharleen__82

Hi All,

I am in desperate need of some advice regarding Lambeth council tax from back in 2012, it is very complicated but I will make it as short and concise as I can.

I moved into a shared rented house in October 2011. I moved out 28th March 2013. The house had 5 bedrooms and 5 tennants living in it. I was living in the loft conversion.

I did not previsouly know my new housemates. I was in charge of paying gas/electric and one of the other housemates was in charge of paying council tax. My name was added to council tax bill.

I paid my council tax every month to my hosuemates in good faith. But then when they left the property in Aug 2012 we discovered that they had not been paying the counil tax and hiding the letters, so we saw none of the arrears letters. They run off with our money and left the country as far as I am aware (Italy I last heard!).

As soon as I discovered what was going on I called the council immediatly and told them what was going on. They were surprisingly understanding and gave us a big discount and sorted out a payment plan for us.

There were further changes to Concil Tax accounts as people moved in and moved out - some people were students and one person was claiming council tax benefit. But I sorted it all out and was making regular payments.

So according to the council my name is on 3 different accounts for this house!! This is due to people coming and going.

As it was all sorted and payments were being made I asked another of the housemates to take over responsibility as at that point I was in charge of ALL of the bills and I was getting very stressed becuase I was constantly chasing them for money. So a girl took it over...

But it fell into arrears AGAIN!!

Anyway, when I knew I was going to leave, I did not want to leave owing any money or having any responsibility for the other people in the house. So I took charge again.

I ensured that all coincil tax was paid up until the end of March when I was leaving.

I gave them my forwarding address and whilst on the phone to them (I wish it had been email) I made sure that I was completely paid up and done with them. They said yes, and even sent me a letter for a refund for overpayment - which I sent back to my old housemates to claim back.

And that was that.

Or so I thought.

Yesterday out of the blue I received a Enfocement Notice to the tune of £456.44. As you can imagine I was really shocked!! They had assured me that I had completely paid up.

And this was the first I heard from them. I had no other bills, court summons or ANYTHING. I have NOT heard anything from the council since April 2013.

So this morning I called them. The guy on the phone said there were so many accounts realting to that property and period that he couldn't go through them all.

He said that the liability was for 1st January 2012 - 1st August 2012. They said that two other housemates are liable but they have no addresses for them - so they are coming after me - for ALL of it!! They said that the two housemates who ran of with our money were exempt because they said they were students - and they dont care that they ran off with our money - the council tax still needs to be paid.

They said that they got my address from credit agencies on 25th November - bit I GAVE them my new address back in MARCH!!! I asked them if I was all sorted back then. If they had told me about this back then then I would have sorted it out and avioded all of the court fee's etc. I have heard nothing from them and didn't even know any of this was going on!!

I have receipts of paying arount £700 in council tax in March and I am going to go home today and tear the house apart and look for this letter where they gave a discount for the two bad people who ran off with our money.

I have no idea where the two men who they are also looking for during 1st Jan - 1st August are anymore, one is not even on facebook anymore and I just know they wo'nt pay - I could hardly get money out of them when I was living with them - let alone now.

I know this is really long and complicated - but please - is there anything I can do or anything you could suggest.

I would be so grateful as I am so scared and stressed. I tried so hard in March to sort everything out to aviod something like this happening and I am distraught. I have already paid this council tax to dishonest housemates. I could even swallow paying my share again - but for me to pay all of it because they cant find these two other men is so heartbreaking!!

Sharleen__82

oh and there will be no further action taken for 14 days. He said I should email them with as much evidence as I can find.

lincroft1710

Let's clear one thing up first, did the housemates as a group rent the house off the landlord, or did each housemate individually rent a room off the landlord. If the latter. then the house is classed as a House in Multiple Occupation (HMO) for Council Tax purposes and the landlord is responsible for paying the CT.

If the house is not a HMO and your name is on the CT bill, then you are what is termed "jointly and severally" liable for the CT bill, i.e. the law allows the council to pursue whichever individual occupier it can for the money owed.

The only way to find out if £456.44 is the correct amount owing, is to find out the exact dates it refers to, how much the bill was for those dates and how much has actually been paid directly to the council.

Sharleen__82

I now know that it SHOULD have been an HMO - but I didnt back then.

It was not - my name was on the council tax bill as well as the other tennants.

I will request the information you said.

But surely as I gave them my forwarding address I should have already had this from them? In that £456.44 is £127 court fees - I was not notified at all about any court summons.

I have not heard from the council since April 2013. Then all of a sudden this Enforcement Notice.

If I had had communication I could have done something about it at the time before it got this far.

Can I at least fight that? Its so unfair the way this works!!

lincroft1710

So if the house is a HMO for CT purposes, were the council at fault for not recognising it as such? Or did the LL not tell them? If council are not aware of the situation, explain it to them, they may agree they should have been charging the LL, and may decide to chase him. But I'm not certain if HMO status can be backdated.

Regarding the court fees (which seem excessive), I would definitely query these and explain you informed the council of your new address in March 2013 and if you have proof of this obviously show them.

Sharleen__82

Thank you - I will try this angle and at least try to get it reduced as much as I can.

Thank you very much for your help.

If anyone else has other ideas / opinions I would be really grateful.

John_Pierpoint

Assuming that you are in England:

Is the number of occupants relevant to decide whether a property is a HMO or not? Yes - Any building, or part of a building, which is occupied only by two persons cannot be a HMO even though those two persons are unrelated. Therefore, for premises to be a HMO there must be at least three persons involved. This is a different number than that which applies to Mandatory HMO Licencing where there must be at least 5 occupiers [and three floors].


http://www.rla.org.uk/landlord/guides/housing_act/docs/all/what_is_an_hmo.shtml
http://www.comfortlettings.co.uk/blog/2012/08/16/definition-of-an-hmo-house-in-multiple-occupation

CIS

Is the number of occupants relevant to decide whether a property is a HMO or not? Yes - Any building, or part of a building, which is occupied only by two persons cannot be a HMO even though those two persons are unrelated. Therefore, for premises to be a HMO there must be at least three persons involved. This is a different number than that which applies to Mandatory HMO Licencing where there must be at least 5 occupiers [and three floors].

If a property is a licensed HMO then it's certainly a HMO for council tax purposes - in addition, even if it's not a licensed HMO, if it's adapted for multiple occupancy then it's a council tax HMO.

The property would also be a council tax HMO if each occupier only rented a room and were responsible only for their own rent.

So if the house is a HMO for CT purposes, were the council at fault for not recognising it as such? Or did the LL not tell them? If council are not aware of the situation, explain it to them, they may agree they should have been charging the LL, and may decide to chase him. But I'm not certain if HMO status can be backdated.

We are never notified by our licensing department when a property becomes licensed , if we want to find out we have to go digging.

The backdating issue is a non-issue , the legislation is specific that a property which falls under the liability for owners regulations as a HMO should be regarded as such, no time limits are mandated. It's simply a case of if it meets the criteria then it's a HMO.

lincroft1710

CIS wrote: »

The backdating issue is a non-issue , the legislation is specific that a property which falls under the liability for owners regulations as a HMO should be regarded as such, no time limits are mandated. It's simply a case of if it meets the criteria then it's a HMO.

So am I correct in assuming that if, as OP says, this was a HMO at the time of her occupation, she is not responsible for this bill as the LL can be charged back to the time the house first became a HMO.

Sharleen__82

Thank you very much for this information, its really useful. I wish I had known about this at the time I moved as the HMO makes a lot more sense, and would have saved so much stress!! But I had not ever lived away from home before this - so you live and learn.

When speaking to the council on numerous occasions regarding people in the house paying - all they ever said to me was just that it had to be paid, by whom, they didn't concern themselves with. It now seems madness that seeing how many tennants were on the bill, no-one at the council ever mentioned to me that it could or should be a HMO!!

I will put together all of my evidence and include the HMO viewpoint.

I have checked the link you sent to me and the property always had five tennants or more over three floors. One room downstairs, three rooms on the first floor and a room plus sperate toilet and sink room in the loft. So I think it should meet the criteria stated to be a HMO.

Sharleen__82

lincroft1710 wrote: »

So am I correct in assuming that if, as OP says, this was a HMO at the time of her occupation, she is not responsible for this bill as the LL can be charged back to the time the house first became a HMO.

Should I pose this to the council do you think?