PPC PCN help please

retep53

A few years ago my sons moved to an area (in England) where there was no available street parking in the immediate vicinity. We visit them occasionally (about 8 times a year at most), usually on a Sunday afternoon and have always parked in a retail centre car park as it is free. A few months ago we noticed a sign there from a car park administrator, who is a member of BPA, stating a time limit of a few hours and that it was camera controlled. However there were no cameras fitted, so we assumed it was all a bluff. On subsequent visits we didn’t think of the notice at all, so didn’t think to check. (Stupid!)

Last Monday we received a parking charge relating to an overstay from the Sunday 8 days previously. Even worse, the day before we received this letter we had repeated the “offence” so expected to get another “penalty notice” today (obviously, if we had received the first invoice before the following Sunday we would not have committed the second “offence”). The letter we have received for the first instance gave us 14 days from the date of posting to pay at the lower rate, which runs out later this week. We have waited before responding to that as we are expecting a second “penalty charge” and the points we wish to make would apply to both occasions and thought it would be better dealt with in one set of correspondence.

We were originally going to plead “that the signage was not seen” (a half-truth as we did not actually see it on the days relating to the offences, so didn’t think to check for any camera) “and that we have parked there previously without any known problem.” We would also state that “we had actually visited a couple of the retail outlets looking for clothing and present ideas (although no purchase was made) before going on to my son’s residence. The car park sign" (as I have subsequently discovered) "states you are “solely engaged to provide a traffic space maximization scheme”. At the end of the “free” period of parking the shops adjoining the car park would all have been closed, therefore the charge is arbitrary as there can be no genuine pre-estimate of loss as we would not have been denying parking to anyone wishing to visit those retail outlets.”

In the light of what I have read in this forum I assume it would be better crouched in third person terminology (which removes the human appeal of the appeal).
Any advice would be welcome.

Umkomaas

Take a read of this as it will guide you through your parking charge(s). Come back if there's something you don't understand, but it should take you through quite seamlessly to your POPLA appeal.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822

retep53

Thanks Umkomaas, I'll have a look. New to this, how do I formally thank you? Oh, just seen how.

retep53

Completely confused now. So many different opinions as to what to do for best here and on pepipoo.

One thread on pepipoo even had 2 tables of operators with one list that a NTK should be responded to and the other where an NTK should be ignored.

Unfortunately the cowboys I have received the NTK from are on the second list, so not sure how to proceed as I also feel the change of legislation last year should not be ignored (I would rather have the option of going to popla than give the PPC the green light to by-pass that and start court proceedings)

retep53

I am presently thinking of sending a letter (not an e-mail or an online form) with a proof of posting similar to (obviously rewriting and omitting anything irrelevant to my case): CANT PUT The LINK IN so ...

Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to you with reference to Notice to Keeper number (insert reference number on Notice to Keeper) regarding an alleged parking incident on (insert date) at (insert name of store and full address).
In order to take an informed decision on how to deal with the above-mentioned document I would like to request further information on this alleged incident and the alleged parking charges of £(insert amount).
First of all, your Notice to Keeper mentions a company called Athena ANPR Ltd. but fails to identify the actual creditor making this parking charge demand, as required under Schedule 4 paragraphs 8(2)(h) and 9(2)(h) of the PoFA 2012. Therefore I would like you to send me this information, since I need to know exactly who is making the claim and in what capacity.
I would also like to receive all photographic evidence that you hold on this alleged incident since the image you have included in your document of (insert date) as alleged evidence of the vehicle exiting the car park is a blurry picture of an unidentifiable vehicle in an unidentifiable location. I do not expect to pay for this information as it would be disclosable in any future court proceedings.
I would be very grateful if you could send me evidence that besides your management duties within the car park, you also enjoy the rights of possession or occupation needed to be able to enter into an individual contract with drivers and to issue parking charge notices. I therefore require you to send me a copy of the contract that gives you authority to demand these payments together with the instructions that you have received from (insert store name) regarding the time limits and sanctions they wish to impose on their customers.
Further to the above, please explain fully on which of the following grounds your claim is based: trespass, breach of contract or contractually-agreed sum. Please note that if you are claiming that trespass was committed, I would like to receive a full breakdown of the actual loss suffered by your business or the landowner which could give rise to your claim for damages. If on the other hand you are claiming there was a breach of contract or a contractually-agreed sum, I would like to receive a copy of the contract which the driver allegedly entered into.

Please note that I do not wish to receive a standard template answer which fails to address the specific issues that I have raised with you.

I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement within 14 days and a comprehensive reply within 35 days (in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22.8). Only then will I be able to make an informed decision as to how I shall respond to your Notice to Keeper.

Yours sincerely,

...
But do I state it is an appeal and include the detail that at the end of their "free Parking" time the retail outlets were closed so there was no loss incurred to anyone and therefore the charge is punitive, to trigger a popla code in their response (and if they refuse the appeal but do not supply a popla code do I then sit on my hands because they have not supplied a code to allow the time to expire, or write back demanding the code)?

Any more advice welcome, but if I am going to respond to them I must do it later today to ensure they get it before the 14 days expiry

Coupon-mad

retep53 wrote: »

Completely confused now. So many different opinions as to what to do for best here and on pepipoo.

One thread on pepipoo even had 2 tables of operators with one list that a NTK should be responded to and the other where an NTK should be ignored.

Unfortunately the cowboys I have received the NTK from are on the second list, so not sure how to proceed as I also feel the change of legislation last year should not be ignored (I would rather have the option of going to popla than give the PPC the green light to by-pass that and start court proceedings)

What? I have never seen that on pepipoo, link please!

Both on here and on pepipoo we say APPEAL and THEN WIN AT POPLA. It's easy to understand, and there is not more than one opinion.

On 'CAG' you may have found some old rubbish but most of us don't bother with that forum.

So as per the sticky thread already linked, just send this below as your version was copied verbatim from another one (not a good idea):



Dear Sir/Madam,
I am the registered keeper and this is my appeal with reference to Notice to Keeper number (insert reference number on Notice to Keeper) regarding an alleged parking incident on (insert date) at (insert name of store and full address).

First of all, your Notice to Keeper mentions a company called Athena ANPR Ltd. but fails to identify the actual creditor making this parking charge demand, as required under Schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012.

I suggest that you do not have the rights of possession or occupation needed to be able to enter into an individual contract with drivers and to issue parking charge notices. I believe you just act as an agent of the Supermarket and have no legal standing on this site. I therefore require you to send me a copy of the contract that gives you authority to demand these payments together with the instructions that you have received from (insert store name) regarding the time limits and sanctions they wish to impose on their customers.

Finally, please explain fully on which of the following grounds your claim is based: trespass, breach of contract or contractually-agreed sum. I would like to receive a full breakdown of the actual loss suffered by your business or the landowner which could give rise to your claim for damages.

I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement within 14 days and a comprehensive reply within 35 days (in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22.8). If you reject my clear appeal I will require a POPLA code from you immediately; any stalling letter of any description will be reported to the BPA Ltd.

Yours faithfully,

retep53

Sorry CM, I do not have the link but I think it was posted on pepipoo around June this year (but I can't remember the thread title either).
I have now put together (before seeing your post) 2 different possible replies. The first is based on the template posted earlier with alterations and deletions to suit my circumstances and the second taking a slightly different tack (neither mention who the driver was). If I can work out how to do it I will put copies with personal info removed on here. for further advice.

Guys_Dad

Your appeal is not an appeal just a request for information. You run the risk of missing the POPLA deadline.

If you really want to send your version than at least put an appeal point in.

You won't get a POPLA code either as you have asked for further information. That seems unnecessary in any event as you know you contravened. Far better to get to the POPLA stage quickly to kill it off so go with c-m 's version.

retep53

Thanks to all who have tried to guide me through the beginning of this process. None of he template letters I have seen quite seemed to fit my case so I have composed my own 3rd person appeal and will post it tomorrow. I will attempt to log-in tomorrow before committing it to Royal Mail just in case anyone has news that PPC's have been outlawed today (Ha!)

By tomorrow, I mean after I get up later this morning!

retep53

By the way, I haven't worked-out how to put attachments on here and don't know if it is possible. I don't intend to put up the letter that I am sending as text unless it is successful. If that should happen then I will place it as a template in this thread as a template for the forum managers to refer to if they think fit. If anyone does know to include attachments in posts can they please advise me on how to do it for future reference.

Thanks again to all who have replied.

Coupon-mad

You can't post links yet, as a newbie. As long as you wrote as the keeper not implying who was driving - and made it clear it was an appeal (not asking for information) it will be OK. But tell us when they reject and I strongly suggest you simply read advice properly, now, on the sticky threads at the top of the forum, in readiness for when you get to POPLA stage as there are winning appeal words we can show you but if you ignore them then that will be your risk.

Can't understand why my sticky thread made you confused. Have another look now the pressure is off for a week or two.