Winter Tyres II

scheming_gypsy

Ultrasonic wrote: »

Also, with decent winter tyres you can drive safely at speeds much greater than walking pace.

i think their point may be that you can only go as fast as the car in front.

vikingaero

Ultrasonic wrote: »

Even on a treated road you will still be in a position where you have much more grip at the front than the rear, which has to be less safe than having a full set of winter tyres on.

I don't disagree that a full set is far safer. I have a full set on my car and would never go for the half set option.

There isn't a problem having more grip at one end if the other end has sufficient grip. If the rears are gripping then all is well.

Drive East/West along one of Glasgows streets and when you encounter a motorist stopping safely at a junction of one of the intersecting North/South hills you'll be glad they've stopped safely at the junction with the front only winters doing their job, rather than plow on past the junction into the side of your car. It's just a scenario that works.

vikingaero

scheming_gypsy wrote: »

i think their point may be that you can only go as fast as the car in front.

Exactly. At City Centre speeds in the snow you are limited by the constant queues and traffic without winter boots. You are not going to turn a corner at any speed more than walking pace - even with winter boots.

Ultrasonic

vikingaero wrote: »

Exactly. At City Centre speeds in the snow you are limited by the constant queues and traffic without winter boots. You are not going to turn a corner at any speed more than walking pace - even with winter boots.

Oh definitely. When you referred to 'Lowland Scotland' above I was still thinking of rural roads rather than city driving.

The roads I drive to work which are out of town have bends on them, and last winter there were a couple of occasions where people were driving on fresh snow on them at 30 mph plus. A car braking under such conditions with only winter tyres on the front would be far more likely to lose control than one with winters on the rear as well.

Whether 2 winter tyres is safer or not than staying on summer tyres is something I'm not 100% sure of. There is an argument that winters on the front would alow you to get up to higher speeds and make you feel safer, until you had to brake, or otherwise lost control of the rear, and crashed into something.

I have no knowledge either way on this, but I would definitely want to confirm my insurance was still valid if I had winter tyres on the front but not the rear.

Although it obviously does cost more the best advice surely has to be to fit 4 winter tyres.

gilbert_and_sullivan

[QUOTE=Ultrasonic;63867710 A car braking under such conditions with only winter tyres on the front would be far more likely to lose control than one with winters on the rear as well.

Whether 2 winter tyres is safer or not than staying on summer tyres is something I'm not 100% sure of. There is an argument that winters on the front would alow you to get up to higher speeds and make you feel safer, until you had to brake, or otherwise lost control of the rear, and crashed into something.

I have no knowledge either way on this, but I would definitely want to confirm my insurance was still valid if I had winter tyres on the front but not the rear.

Although it obviously does cost more the best advice surely has to be to fit 4 winter tyres.[/QUOTE]


I'm in broad agreement with this, without winters on the drive axle those of dubious skills find themselves hardly able to move, but with winters find that their car pulls away without much problem, will they have the experience/feel/nous to realise the non driven wheels have far less grip is anyone guess.

One could easily see a situation where the front wheels grip but the rears don't.

Same situation with a RWD on two winters on the drive axle, able to get going easily but the major braking tyres, fronts, could again have far less grip than the rears...less chance of an oversteer but a massively increased potential for front lock up under braking and/or running wide understeer.

Thing is we have whole increasing swathes of the driving public who have never driven a vehicle without traction/stability controls or ABS or both, are they going to have the seat-of-the-pants feel for whats happening under the wheels, from the performances i see on wet greasy roads i already know the answer to that.

I run 4 x winters in the season, have for some years now, wouldn't consider running two on the drive axle only, not going to work is not an option and mine is often the only 2WD car that can get out from where i live....if i had the drive axle only fitted with winters i'd still have to get back down the hill to my home, not for me thanks.

Yes many years ago, when cars were all RWD, many drivers fitted two Town and Country tyres to the rear axle for the winter, but these were the same compound as the normal tread pattern used, not temperature dependent as the modern winter tyre, simply a heavier tread pattern (which is what the modern M&S stands for not necessarily winter rated but sometimes are)...thing is the drivers of that era had never heard of ABS so invariably had the feel for what was happening at the sharp end and drove accordingly...they were in control not the electric box of tricks.

To be fair i expect the Scottish and outlying area contingents to be better adverse weather drivers through being used to being in it so often, no doubt those hardy's who regularly fit and use FWD cars fitted with front winters only cope admirably, maybe not a good choice for the less experienced or less switched on driver though.

Much depends on the type of tyre fitted to the rear in these circs, i wouldn't like to drive a FWD with Nokian winters on the front and Chinese summer ditchfinders on the back, tea trolley syndrome.

waynedance

I just fitted Vredestein Quatrac 3 to all FOUR corners on both mine and the misses car, they are all season as do not want the hassle of swapping over each year.

They get some good write ups, I certainly would not only to 2 all season or winter.

nobbysn*ts

gilbert_and_sullivan wrote: »

I'm in broad agreement with this, without winters on the drive axle those of dubious skills find themselves hardly able to move, but with winters find that their car pulls away without much problem, will they have the experience/feel/nous to realise the non driven wheels have far less grip is anyone guess.

One could easily see a situation where the front wheels grip but the rears don't.

Same situation with a RWD on two winters on the drive axle, able to get going easily but the major braking tyres, fronts, could again have far less grip than the rears...less chance of an oversteer but a massively increased potential for front lock up under braking and/or running wide understeer.

Thing is we have whole increasing swathes of the driving public who have never driven a vehicle without traction/stability controls or ABS or both, are they going to have the seat-of-the-pants feel for whats happening under the wheels, from the performances i see on wet greasy roads i already know the answer to that.

I run 4 x winters in the season, have for some years now, wouldn't consider running two on the drive axle only, not going to work is not an option and mine is often the only 2WD car that can get out from where i live....if i had the drive axle only fitted with winters i'd still have to get back down the hill to my home, not for me thanks.

Yes many years ago, when cars were all RWD, many drivers fitted two Town and Country tyres to the rear axle for the winter, but these were the same compound as the normal tread pattern used, not temperature dependent as the modern winter tyre, simply a heavier tread pattern (which is what the modern M&S stands for not necessarily winter rated but sometimes are)...thing is the drivers of that era had never heard of ABS so invariably had the feel for what was happening at the sharp end and drove accordingly...they were in control not the electric box of tricks.

To be fair i expect the Scottish and outlying area contingents to be better adverse weather drivers through being used to being in it so often, no doubt those hardy's who regularly fit and use FWD cars fitted with front winters only cope admirably, maybe not a good choice for the less experienced or less switched on driver though.

Much depends on the type of tyre fitted to the rear in these circs, i wouldn't like to drive a FWD with Nokian winters on the front and Chinese summer ditchfinders on the back, tea trolley syndrome.

I drove for years on old rwd, in unbelievable snow, with no problems. I now own a modern car, and ABS is not an issue to me, I drive using it. I fully expect, when I'm doing the national limit down country lanes, and meet traffic, to pull into the verge, use the brakes to the maximum, and drive with the ABS kicking in on the gravel and mud. I wouldn't have driven the old cars the same way. Drive to the conditions, and the conditions include the vehicle response. If you're a good enough driver to know that, two winter tyres or four won't be an issue, as you'll know what to expect with either scenario, and be able to utilise the improvement in response accordingly. If you're a bad driver, it will be an issue, if you expect summer like performance and don't allow for the front to back difference, and drive regardless of the snow.

AdrianC

nobbysn*ts wrote: »

I drove for years on old rwd, in unbelievable snow, with no problems. I now own a modern car, and ABS is not an issue to me, I drive using it. I fully expect, when I'm doing the national limit down country lanes, and meet traffic, to pull into the verge, use the brakes to the maximum, and drive with the ABS kicking in on the gravel and mud. I wouldn't have driven the old cars the same way. Drive to the conditions, and the conditions include the vehicle response. If you're a good enough driver to know that

Sorry, you're _regularly_ braking harder than you've got grip for, and expecting the technology to rescue you, and lecturing others on driving technique?

Irony truly is not dead.

Do you regard the various other electronic aids, such as ESP, in the same way? After all, they only do the same job as ABS - to automate what a good driver would do anyway to get it all back when they've overcooked it and run out of grip. If so, then one of these days, the laws of physics will catch up with you...

nobbysn*ts

AdrianC wrote: »

Sorry, you're _regularly_ braking harder than you've got grip for, and expecting the technology to rescue you, and lecturing others on driving technique?

Irony truly is not dead.

Do you regard the various other electronic aids, such as ESP, in the same way? After all, they only do the same job as ABS - to automate what a good driver would do anyway to get it all back when they've overcooked it and run out of grip. If so, then one of these days, the laws of physics will catch up with you...

Of course I use the technology, what idiot wouldn't? I expect the ecu to give maximum engine performance. I expect to chip it because I can get more power than the average it was set up for. I expect the brake pads to use the ventilated discs. I expect fitting better grooved discs and pads to improve the braking yet again. I expect active suspension to be better than gas shocks, which where better than oil. I expect the ESP and the ABS to improve the braking yet again. You need to read all the other threads on here to realise we can improve the super safe manufacturers specs, and release what we can cope with, because we are better than the average run of the mill, plod to work driver. I know I'm better, and use the technology that I can now, to the limit, and not live in the past. If you think you can switch off your ABS/ESP, and manage to drive and still process what the ecu is doing as well, you're insane, that's like saying you're just as good with a vintage set of points with a distributor and manual advance /retard lever, and still match my performance.

Gloomendoom

nobbysn*ts wrote: »

I know I'm better, and use the technology that I can now, to the limit, and not live in the past.

I manage quite well in my 1955 car. I don't need to drive it to the limit.