Vet thinks pup is 'dominant'

neveranymoney

As the title says, what I was basically told this morning!

Miss Shadow had her final jab this morning and the vet was a lovely young girl, (how you know you aren't in the first flush of youth, professional people look like mere infants) and when she was asking me general questions I told her a few bits and bobs.

The nipping and biting aren't JUST as bad, but she has started humping legs. Never my husbands, she has a try at mine but goes nuts on my daughter. My daughter is almost 15 and very animal orientated and knows how to deal with it, but more often than not, she will ignore her commands. It is dealt with by me or hubby saying 'Shadow, Off' this usually works but if she is in funny half hour, she will start again.

My son is a bit scared of her and I think she knows this, she really goes to town on his slippers or trouser legs and he keeps out of her way tbh, however I do encourage play and cuddles when appropriate.

Shadow is a mardy miss, she's not particularly pettish, althought she is coming round to it and will lie on my knee, but doesn't mind taking herself off, quite inexplicably to a bed in the kitchen, she can take or leave her snuggly crate which is in the living room with us!

Any road up, the vet basically said these were signs of dominance, I wasn't to let her up the stairs or the settee anymore, we were to exit and enter before her, the usual dominance stuff. You could have blown me over with a feather.

I thought all that dominance stuff was debunked?? After working with scampers so intensively, a blind man could see that that sort of stuff would have had a complete adverse effect, although to be fair, Shadow is a different kettle of fish entirely and is, shall we say, rather confident - excellent at maintaining eye contact and ready for a training session 24/7.

I have to be honest and say that she is definitely more respectful of my husband, for want of a better phrase but I certainly don't want to stop letting her up on the settee, one of the loveliest bits of pet ownership is having a warm, doggy smelling thing lying on you, but it was the way the vet said it.

While I'm on my little rant, am I right to be absolutely fed up and ignoring the never ending stream of naysayers telling me to tap her on the nose, or roll up a piece of newspaper and 'tap' her with that?? (Apparently 'they' don't like the noise was another gem. I wily shave thought getting hit would have been the unpleasant part!)

I have basically taken the long route to say, I'm not a believer in the dominance theory - that she has to be seen as the bottom of the pack but she is not lacking in confidence, or displays any sign of 'submisssion' so do I heed the vets advice about the settee and what have you?

The kennel club puppy classes are completely full until at least the new year, so I am waiting to hear when the classes run in the vets (but by a trainer, not the vets) have the numbers to start sessions. I don't feel I need the behaviourist as yet and she she very easily trained. She's a lab after all and would sell her little soul for any morsel of food.

Shadow makes us think of the scampers boy everyday, my daughter still wears his tags around her neck and she actually helped me see that this was not the right atmosphere for such a nervous wee thing, silly things like having a disco dance with my son don't even raise an eyelid with her, well, she may want to join in but we couldn't do anything like that with scampers about although I did have a wee cry about him and secretly wished for just one hour of the peace he brought when he was a happy chap.

Apologies for rambling, it's that sort of a day!

Person_one

Ignore the vet, get back in touch with the wonderful behaviourist who helped you with Scampers.

krlyr

You're certainly on the right track, yes the dominance theory has been 'debunked'. Mech, who was one of the first to publish the "fact" of the dominance theory, later went back on his findings and publishing his change in views.
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die may be worth a read (and even worth printing to give to said vet, before she causes damge to someone with less savvy than you)

You could try the APDT to find a local trainer who doesn't support the dominance theory - http://www.apdt.co.uk

dandelionclock30

I honestly dont think you need to be shelling you money for behaviourists every time you have issues with your dogs. What about taking it to a community dog training class which are free where I live and asking the person that runs it for tips? Just wait till the New Year if you cant get in before.
Also every time the dog tries to hump someones leg, push it down, say sternly no and take it to the kitchen for time out. I think you just need to be strict and for the whole family to stick to some rules about the dog.
What happened to your other dog?did you have to give him up in the end?
Best wishes with it, but you just need to be firm.

neveranymoney

My last dog was a rescue and had quite severe fear induced dog aggression, bit another dog quite badly and we had the most wonderful behaviourist and were working through that. He was not used to children at all and whilst he made great progress in many things, he bared his teeth and moved into my face, behaviourist felt that this could not go on in light of having children in the house. It is a very sad subject and moonlight shadow is our new doggy companion, the house was too quiet.

We are quite firm, on one of her particularly mad moments of biting, humping etc I intervened with a very loud OFF and NO and gave her what my mother would have called 'the bad eye' and the removed all ourselves from her. She stopped but couldn't have given a toss really.

Due to scampers/behaviourist I can sort of see body language stuff that I wouldn't have seen before and I agree, she definitely needs a firm reminder but (I didn't tell vet this bit, lord knows what she would have made of this) when I brought her up to see my daughter in bed, she really didn't want me to take her away again and barked and got on a bit, not in a playful way.

I know for a fact the behaviourist would wet himself about the dominance stuff, with scampers he said it was grand to be on the settee as long as they were invited up, ie, asked to sit or something before they got up. Obviously shadow is a pup and can't make it up with out being lifted but that is not for the want of trying, I would say she will make it herself in the next few weeks and I have to say, I think trouble will start then!

I have a lot if stuff the behaviourist gave me about training a puppy as we were going back to basics with scampers but I need to save to get shadow neutered and I have the gas and electric bill in at the end of this month but the behaviourist is so positive and reassuring, I would like a visit....

con1888

Although a lot is/was debunked.. I still see ( and have) dogs who are or try to be dominant.

My dog as a pup was similar, he needed strict boundaries, not getting away with anything. He now knows that sort of behaviour is not allowed and behaves fine around myself and OH, however if a new person comes into the house he tries it with them, naturally we give him a row for this and he soons stop.

What I'm trying to say is that although pack theory methods of training tend to be done away with, dogs ( or some at least) will still try to be 'top dog' and succeed if let away with it.

Just my oppinion but it's also based on my experience..


Edit : I do allow my dog on the sofa and bed, at his own leisure but when we say 'off' he knows to get off. I go in/out the door whatever way I find easiest not always making sure I go first. One thing I did teach him was that going up/down stairs he walks next to or behind but that was more from a safety point of view.

Person_one

I wouldn't normally recommend a behaviourist for fairly 'normal' new puppy teething problems. I think though that you had such a hard time with Scampers, the behaviourist could give you the confidence you need, and some techniques that will work with this particular dog, who is so different.

krlyr

con1888 wrote: »

Although a lot is/was debunked.. I still see ( and have) dogs who are or try to be dominant.

I can kind of understand the blurry line but I think behaviour can be broken down a lot more simply. So a dog that keeps trying to get onto the sofa or bed..well, it's comfier on them, they smell of you, they're warmer, etc. A dog that tries to go through the door first has probably learnt that it gets them out onto their exciting walk those few seconds faster - so it's an action that continuously rewards them, until they're taught otherwise. Humping provides a relief to an overexited (or stressed) dog. If a behaviour is rewarding (either resulting in a reward - e.g. warm bed - or the action is rewarding in itself, e.g. the humping), a dog will repeat it..hence the need to train a more rewarding behaviour that the dog will then chose to do instead.

neveranymoney

Ooohhh, but it's a ruddy minefield. I tend to agree with all the above posts, Shadow is a much different dog than Scampers and I definitely feel she needs good guidance on what's appropriate and what's not. You tend to fight an uphill battle more with pups as people tend to be quite 'oh I don't mind them jumping up' because she is still small and cute whereas they won't be so darn happy when she is thelwell sized and mucky.

I can't train the 'off' the settee command until she is able to get up and down herself safely so do I keep letting her up until then or refusing? Currently all leaping and carrying on is ignored and she has to sit nicely, so of an evening I will say, are you coming for a cuddle?' And she sits her bum down and waits for me to lift her up. Once up, she lies on you, has a neb over the sides, if there's room she beggars off to the other side of the settee away from you. Since she is uber nippy when tired, we always bring a chew toy up with her and it's almost like a baby with a dummy, she has even gone and got a Chew to get up with! I must post another pic, she was 2kg when she came and is now 6 and he claws are like knives. I know this little fact due to a shock hump when I was in my nightie.

dandelionclock30

Im sorry to hear that it didnt work out with your other dog.You definatley did the right thing getting rid, it would have been awful if he had attacked one of you.Its just not worth it.
I think your new dog will settle down more once shes been neutered.

neveranymoney

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