Could I ask about driver details?

Stroma

Okay keeper liability is pofa 2012, so they are acting within that, which means of course that the keeper can deal with this. And once you name the driver your liability ends under the act, if that person denies driving well that is their problem and not yours.

Coupon-mad

It refers me to the reverse for "details of registered keeper liability". This section states "......not been paid in full, and the registered keeper has not provided the name of the driver and a current serviceable address for service for the driver, Premier Park as the Creditor will have the right to purse the Registered Keeper for any amount which remains unpaid."

That is a direct quote from POFA 2012 so they were trying to invoke rk liability. Were they too late with their postal NTK, what were the dates? Complain to the BPA and also reply to the PPC; you appealed in time and you are allowed to appeal as the keeper.

Bwib

The "offence" occurred on 12th October and the PCN is dated 21st, received on the 24th.

Coupon-mad wrote: »

That is a direct quote from POFA 2012 so they were trying to invoke rk liability.

I have amended my letter to say "Your PCN implies that you are invoking Registered Keeper liability yet you are refusing to accept an appeal from the Registered Keeper. I am surprised, that as a member of BPA, you are not aware that you cannot do this."

Am I muddling two separate issues here? Confused and stressed!

Stroma

Invoking keeper liability under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012

Coupon-mad

Bwib wrote: »

The "offence" occurred on 12th October and the PCN is dated 21st, received on the 24th.



I have amended my letter to say "Your PCN implies that you are invoking Registered Keeper liability yet you are refusing to accept an appeal from the Registered Keeper. I am surprised, that as a member of BPA, you are not aware that you cannot do this."

Am I muddling two separate issues here? Confused and stressed!

No you are not in a muddle, that's a very good response but maybe like Stroma says, '...invoking keeper liability under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012...'

:T

Bwib

Hi,

Letters posted (recorded delivery) and I have at last managed to upload the PCN that Coupon-mad asked to see.

In my ignorance I assumed they would be as they should be but you guys probably know different.

tinypic.com/r/5zibmt/5

tinypic.com/r/2drhy7t/5

Here are some pics of signage but not sure how useful they are out of context?

tinypic.com/r/suwlzd/5 is the only signage at the entrance to the car park which as you can see is always full to capacity:)

tinypic.com/r/qo63w5/5 close up of the only sign on entry which is on the passenger side

tinypic.com/r/5b4l8p/5 There is a sign on the drivers side - when you drive out of the exit!

tinypic.com/r/2z81zyp/5 - high up an very hard to read even up close and squinting

tinypic.com/r/24oomlj/5 Signage at far end of car park

tinypic.com/r/9tk46d/5 signs are repeated at the far end of the carpark where there are no marked bays but not by the bays

Any comments gratefully received as I have already started creating my POPLA appeal in anticipation.

bod1467

Bwib wrote: »

Hi,

Letters posted (recorded delivery) and I have at last managed to upload the PCN that Coupon-mad asked to see.

In my ignorance I assumed they would be as they should be but you guys probably know different.

http://tinypic.com/r/5zibmt/5

http://tinypic.com/r/2drhy7t/5

Here are some pics of signage but not sure how useful they are out of context?

http://tinypic.com/r/suwlzd/5 is the only signage at the entrance to the car park which as you can see is always full to capacity:)

http://tinypic.com/r/qo63w5/5 close up of the only sign on entry which is on the passenger side

http://tinypic.com/r/5b4l8p/5 There is a sign on the drivers side - when you drive out of the exit!

http://tinypic.com/r/2z81zyp/5 - high up an very hard to read even up close and squinting

http://tinypic.com/r/24oomlj/5 Signage at far end of car park

http://tinypic.com/r/9tk46d/5 signs are repeated at the far end of the carpark where there are no marked bays but not by the bays

Any comments gratefully received as I have already started creating my POPLA appeal in anticipation.

1st class post (with free certificate of posting from the PO) would have been just as good, if not better. Many PPCs won't sign for recorded delivery items.

Coupon-mad

I have looked at the NTK and compared it to paragraph 9 of Schedule 4:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

Your NTK from Premier Park:

page one - http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=5zibmt&s=5#.Uo6JVuhFCpo

page two - http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2drhy7t&s=5#.Uo6Jz-hFCpo


I would say it misstates something and omits another thing.

The misstating issue:

Alleging that if you as keeper do not (1) pay nor (2) name the driver they can increase the charge to a sum over £100 (they cannot increase it in fact, if the keeper appeals, so they have omitted the third option and made it appear that after day 28 it's £150, which exceeds the appropriate amount').

And the possible omission:

I cannot see the following wording on there, (bit in bold) can you, unless under the bit you have covered up it explains that the requirement was 'on signs around the car park' or words to that effect?

''9(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
(2)The notice must—
(c)describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable''

And as for the signage, I agree with your observations

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=suwlzd&s=5#.Uo6MSehFCpo
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qo63w5&s=5#.Uo6Ma-hFCpo
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=5b4l8p&s=5#.Uo6MkehFCpo
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2z81zyp&s=5#.Uo6Mt-hFCpo
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24oomlj&s=5#.Uo6M9ehFCpo
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=9tk46d&s=5#.Uo6NLuhFCpo
https://tinypic.com/r/9tk46d/5

But would say your least helpful pic for your case is the last one as they might argue that the signs face cars as they drive in...however you should always include a POPLA appeal point about 'unclear signage' among other winning points shown here:

How to win at POPLA (2013 information). POPLA decisions (do not start reading there at page 1 - read back from the most recent at the end, and learn!).

Bwib

Hi Coupon-mad,

Can't quite believe you are still responding to people on here at this time of night I'm almost asleep (caring for 87 year old mum 24/7 is taking its toll the older I get!)

Have had a quick read but will do so properly in the morning. Can't thank you enough.

I don't think I have blanked out anything other than "personal" info on the PCN but will double check.

The photos aren't good out of context - that last photo isn't as you drive in, it is the piece of car park that goes to the left from the entrance.

Once again, thank you so much.

Bwib

Still patiently awaiting my Popla code following my second attempt to get it but have continued reading, learning and drafting in advance.

My complaint to Steve Clark regarding non-compliance resulted in a very standard response from the AOS investigations team, the content of which makes it clear they didn't even read my very short letter. I hadn't suggested they become involved in a dispute so not sure why I got a huge paragraph about that. As I had quoted from their CoP and noted non-compliance regarding correct appeals procedures felt slightly miffed that they gave me a link to read their CoP and to then explain that a first appeal should be made to the operator! Interesting was their use of the word "motorist", thus avoiding specifying driver or keeper even when this was the point I was raising. I will in due course give them the incident specifics they ask for to allow them to check and see if only allowing a driver to appeal is non-compliant!

That aside, I am now wondering if I should be including "disability discrimination" as a valid appeal point or if it will just muddy waters.

Didn't raise this in my appeal as I kept it to a short, sharp hit of the key appeal points that I had read about on here. I did however raise it in my complaint to the retail store.

I'll try and be brief and clear (I do know I can waffle!).

This supermarket is on the High Street. The car park is behind it.

There has been a supermarket there for over 30 years that I know of, with an entrance at the back and front of the store. The present incumbent took over in July after a major refurb. At this point they closed off the direct access into the back of the store from the car park (where there was a wheelchair ramp) and you now have to walk out of the car park, up the road (up hill), round the corner onto the high street to use the front entrance. Only takes about two minutes walking quickly but depending on disability most valid blue badge holders couldn't do it.

On the day of the "contravention" the driver had dropped off a very disabled passenger, their wheeled walking aid and another passenger directly in front of the high street entrance. The driver then went and parked the car. The passenger has a blue badge but this wasn't used as the driver did not park in a disabled bay as the badge user wasn't in the car at the time of parking.

Given the circumstances under which the driver parked not sure if the Equality postings I have read actually do come into play or if it just something I should maybe take up with the store in terms of their exclusion of disabled shoppers?