Could I ask about driver details?

Bwib

Having found this forum a few weeks ago (and then spent two days reading it!) I was thinking that I wouldn't need to ask for help. You already freely give copious amounts of your time in helping and I have truly appreciated the information available. I won't name names for fear of missing out a key contributor but needless to say "Thank You".

I have now had a further letter from the parking company and I am not certain how to respond.

At the end of October, I (as the registered keeper of the vehicle) received a Parking Charge Notice relating to a short overstay in a free carpark. Using masses of information gathered from the forum I complained to the store manager (who agreed the time limit was a problem for him as a manager), the retail chain HQ (who fobbed me off with a "we don't own the land" letter and then to the land owner.

At the same time I sent an appeal letter to the parking company using all the relevant arguments that I had read about on here.

They have now responded stating that they acknowledge receipt of the letter appealing the charge but as I had told them I was not the driver at the time they say they cannot respond or accept the letter as an appeal.

They have told me they can only accept an appeal from the driver directly and that this must be submitted within 14 days or they will assume the driver does not want to appeal and the full amount will be payable. They have not provided the Popla code that I asked for.

Am I mis-understanding something I have read or just confusing myself with brain overload!. Do I now have to provide them with the drivers details or can I insist that they accept my appeal letter and that if they reject it to supply me with the Popla code so that I can appeal directly as the keeper of the vehicle.

Thank you in advance for any info, guidance or pointers to relevant threads.

kirkbyinfurnesslad_2

It is certainly possible for the registered keeper to appeal

Which Parking company ?

Folkiedave

They are talking round spherical objects.

See "Who Can Appeal?" here:

http://www.popla.org.uk/makinganappeal.htm

Steve Clark <Steve.C@britishparking.co.uk>has said unequivocally that the registered keeper can appeal.

Refer Steve Clark to this email :

Date: 19 July 2013 15:23:34 GMT+01:00

and ask if his advice still applies and if not what changed when!

Write back and say that if they do not give you a POPLA Code you are assuming they are closing the case.

You are right and they are wrong. Make sure you have some record of sending - either proof of postage or email or similar.

Umkomaas

Can you just confirm that this was a PCN through the post following an ANPR camera capture?

Who is the PPC please?

Stroma

Pofa 2012 is about keeper liability, if they are saying that they will only do an appeal from the driver, then they are not using pofa, now I would bet my house on that they mention the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, don't they ?

Bwib

Thanks guys,

Sorry, I should have said. The original communication was a PCN from a company called Premier Park Limited. That just came through the post within 14 days of the "offence".

It contains 2 photographs of my vehicle giving entering and leaving times. Having checked signage myself there is a very small picture of a CCTV camera on the sign at the entrance to the car park which I have noted is on the passenger side on entry, almost at ground level! There are no signs about ANPR camera use in the marked parking bay area on the piece of land.

Thank you for the link about who can appeal. Going to grab something to eat and will then have a read.

Coupon-mad

This was queried today (about Parking Eye), this is sharp practice bearing in mind they were reminded in the Summer about the BPA CoP which says under POPLA 'the driver or keeper can appeal'.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/63816578#Comment_63816578

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/63774586#Comment_63774586

So many people wouldn't know they don't have to name the driver. It is so wrong. Also send a complaint email to the BPA Ltd, about Premier Park Ltd. Can we see a picture of their signs and a scan/photo of their 'Notice to Keeper' (first letter) please? Haven't seen one of theirs (front & back please). We can check it for non-compliance and it helps others in the future. You can't post full links until you have 10 posts but you can post a broken link for us (remove the http:// from the URL where you have hosted pics on tinypic or photobucket, and of course cover the PCN number & car reg/name/address).

And do stick around & ask for help at POPLA stage!

Bwib

Hi again,

Stroma, think I am going to have to do some more reading as I don't understand the relevance of them using, or not using, this POFA 2012. This is what their 2nd letter actually says:

"We write to acknowledge receipt of your recent letter appealing against the issuing of a Parking Charge Notice to a vehicle at xxxxxxx.

Please be advised that as you have mentioned in your letter that were not the driver of the vehicle at the time of the alleged contravention, we are unable to respond to the points raised in your letter and accept your letter as an appeal.

Please inform the driver of the vehicle that we can only accept an appeal from them directly. This should be submitted within 14 days of this letter, after this time we will assume that the driver of the vehicle does not wish to appeal and the full amount will be payable."

This is quoted exactly complete with the missing word (you). I also think their messy grammar and lack of punctuation in the second paragraph makes it unclear whether they are saying they do or don't accept my letter as an appeal.

As they don't mention POFA 2012 I sincerely hope that you didn't actually bet your house on this Are you able to help me understand the relevance of this?

Thanks for the links you posted, Coupon-mad. Will certainly incorporate some of this helpful information in my next letter to them and let them know that I have reported their lack of understanding to the BPA.

I am more than happy to upload anything that may help you guys but this is (embarrassingly) beyond my technical capabilities so this will need to wait until my husband is at home tomorrow night.

From more reading I have done this evening both on this forum and the POPL website, now worrying that the 14 days referring to the reduced charge has been lost.

As I see it, the registered keeper has correctly appealed. They have not rejected the appeal, have merely said ( I think) that they cannot accept the appeal. Theoretically I could now pass this letter to the driver who could (for example) choose to ignore it. Can they then issue court proceedings against me saying that no appeal was made and I refused to pay up?

Stroma

On all the stuff from them do they state pofa 2012? If they don't they cannot hold the keeper liable but only the driver, if you don't tell them who that is they can basically take a running jump! You have no legal obligation by the way in naming the driver

Coupon-mad

As I see it, the registered keeper has correctly appealed. They have not rejected the appeal, have merely said ( I think) that they cannot accept the
appeal. Theoretically I could now pass this letter to the driver who could (for example) choose to ignore it. Can they then issue court proceedings against me saying that no appeal was made and I refused to pay up?

Theoretically, yes, because the ball is in your court, they have written and you must respond.

Which is why you should simply reply like in the two linked cases I showed you. This is ALL about getting a POPLA code and you'll also need to complain to the BPA (email addy is on the 'newbies, read this now' sticky thread).

Bwib

Stroma wrote: »

On all the stuff from them do they state pofa 2012? If they don't they cannot hold the keeper liable but only the driver, if you don't tell them who that is they can basically take a running jump! You have no legal obligation by the way in naming the driver

Sorry Stroma, I had assumed you meant they would have had to quote this Act on the "rejection" letter they sent me.

I have now gone back to the original PCN and read all the small print very carefully. There is absolutely no explicit mention of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

Do they actually have to state that they are using any rights this act gives them or can they imply that they are using this Act by wording they use?

The PCN states that "Failure to provide owner/driver details or full payment within 28 days will result in an increase to £150......"

It refers me to the reverse for "details of registered keeper liability". This section states "......not been paid in full, and the registered keeper has not provided the name of the driver and a current serviceable address for service for the driver, Premier Park as the Creditor will have the right to purse the Registered Keeper for any amount which remains unpaid."

There is also a reply slip to make a declaration as to who the owner or driver was or to provide information which will lead to the true identification of the driver. This states that if you provide an incorrect address or you identify somebody who denies they were the driver "we will pursue you for any unpaid Parking charge"

Have drafted my response to them and my complaint to the BPA based on the help from Coupon-mad but would be great if I could clarify if what they are saying about the Registered Keeper is correctly using POFA 12 and then include that if appropriate.

Haven't forgotten that I still need to try and upload links to the actual PCN and photos.

Thanks again for people's ongoing input and knowledge which is giving me not only the words to use, but the confidence to forge ahead without paying.