Failure to notify of driver & insurance issues

Quiet_Spark

tommyjj wrote: »

So what happens if the person responsible for company transport doesn't drive?

The same thing that happens to people who have a non UK licence.
A pseudo licence is created and the points are applied to that, if that person then applies for a licence the conviction is already there.

tommyjj wrote: »

Would Virgin's transport manager really get six points on his/her licence in such a scenario??

Yes, as they are ultimately responsible for the vehicle.

If I were to lend you a car and you had no insurance, you would get 6 points for no insurance and I would also get 6 points for allowing you to drive without insurance.

atrixblue.-MFR-.

I don't think its correct for a business manager to receive points if his workers argue they weren't driving.

if this was the case then many round the country would have failure to furnish on their personal license and no one would want to take on that role.

im sure the business has to PROVE that they have investigated all avenues to try and identify the driver and if they cannot are heavily fined not have a manager take on points and a fine on his/her personal license.

my advice would be to hire a solicitor in motor vehicle law.

for some reason police officers have it in their head that ALL vehicles driven on DOC must be insured in their own right, this is not the case, as not all insurers have adopted the EU style of doc extension cover rules, my policy states that I can drive other vehicle aslong as it has a valid MOT and valid Tax that the driver is not disqualified from driving and that the vehicle isn't leased or private hired no mention of having to have valid insurance.

in this case I would call my insurers and ask them if I was covered at that time and date on that vehicle under DOC their party, if so then I would ask for confirmation via e-mail and write to the CPS with the ref number and put this evidence forward to see if they wish to continue to court with this evidence coming to light again a solicitor would be good to have here.

I would pop over to pepipoo register free and ask those there the same you've asked here.

goonarmy

Quiet_Spark wrote: »

The same thing that happens to people who have a non UK licence.
A pseudo licence is created and the points are applied to that, if that person then applies for a licence the conviction is already there.


Yes, as they are ultimately responsible for the vehicle.

If I were to lend you a car and you had no insurance, you would get 6 points for no insurance and I would also get 6 points for allowing you to drive without insurance.

So the answer is hire someone with no intention to drive as a transport manager? Or a foreiger?
And surely a transport manager for a big company with hundreds of vehicles can lose their liscence every other week?

Joe_Horner

atrixblue.-MFR-. wrote: »

in this case I would call my insurers and ask them if I was covered at that time and date on that vehicle under DOC

The problem with that is that insurance companies have also been known to get it wrong and claim that insurance is required on the car when it isn't. In Prior V Greater Manchester Police, the police phoned the insurers from the roadside and were told that DOC didn't cover in the circumstances, when it transpired in court that it actually did.

You'd hope that a ruling like that would be circulated by insurers (and the various police forces) to their staff to prevent future errors, but things like that don't seem to happen in the real world

I'm all for people going it alone when things are (or should be) straightforward, but in these cases the best advice really is to contact a competent solicitor. Given the repurcussions if it goes wrong, the cost of a solicitor is likely to be a small price to pay!


eta: as for the question of managers taking points in cases like this, it may or may not be "fair" but it's what the law says. The only real challenge against that would be to push right the way through the system (the Supreme Court and then onto the ECHR) and hope someone along the way found the law itself to be a breach of something. But that's going to cost and, probably, be unsuccessful!

Prothet_of_Doom

Quiet_Spark wrote: »

There is no requirement for companies to keep vehicle logs, but if he had done then he would have been able to identify the driver in the time allowed and wouldn't have copped 6 points for failure to notify.

Although everybody's driving licence is "personal" to them, there is no such thing as a "personal driving licence".

If it transpires that his insurance does not require a borrowed vehicle to be insured in it's own right, then all he has to do is go to court with the relevant paperwork to prove and he will be found not guilty.

If the name on the V5 is the owner, director or finance manager (or similar) of a small business, then it is common sense to have a system, whereby drivers are recorded, to avoid such a common problem. If they have a system, can prove that it is policed for completeness, then they have a reasonable defence in court, as to why they can't say who was driving. If they just let all and sundry drive, don't check thier licences on a regular basis, don't have a log, don't check that the log and the distances tally, and that there are no missing miles, then they leave themselves open to problems later.

They don't have to do that, but as the registered keeper, how stupid would they be to not take thier responsibilitie seriously.

colino

The most important part OP is that friend engages the services of a legal team that deal in motoring cases as he really has dropped himself in it. He has demonstrated that he keeps inadequate records of his business fleet and drivers and seems to have shrugged off one of his employees damaged a vehicle and drove off. He has compounded the laissez-faire respect to driving laws by driving a private car uninsured. Views have hardened and like everyone else in business, you keep business fleets entirely separate from private vehicles, it's an easy opening offence for white caps.
Get the legal team on to it and be a contrite little fellow and hope, even with more points, there is no automatic ban imposed due to the extended hardship it would create.

vaio

Assuming he (rather than a limited company) is down as reg keeper then the failure to notify is a done deal and he's stuck with the points.

On the insurance, he'll be ok as long as he can produce a certificate that gives him DOC cover with no need for the car to be separately insured and that doesn't exclude cars owned by spouses. This could be his own car insurance or maybe one of his company policies. He needs to read the certificates

More generally, as far as I am aware based on a couple of cases a few years ago, if a ltd company is down as reg keeper then any failure to notify charge is brought against the company and managers/directors licences aren't at risk.

AdrianC

atrixblue.-MFR-. wrote: »

I don't think its correct for a business manager to receive points if his workers argue they weren't driving.

if this was the case then many round the country would have failure to furnish on their personal license and no one would want to take on that role.

im sure the business has to PROVE that they have investigated all avenues to try and identify the driver and if they cannot are heavily fined not have a manager take on points and a fine on his/her personal license.

If the business has internal policies in place requiring all drivers to log which vehicle they're using, and they can point to that and to their logs not having been filled in, then the transport manager should be able to escape a penalty, as they've taken all reasonable steps.

If the person who the vehicle was signed out to denies being behind the wheel, then that's for them to deal with, since the RK will have good reason to have put their name on the NIP.

The relevant legislation is s172, RTA88

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/172

(4)A person shall not be guilty of an offence by virtue of paragraph (a) of subsection (2) above if he shows that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was.

Businesses are explicitly covered in the legislation...

(5)Where a body corporate is guilty of an offence under this section and the offence is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to neglect on the part of, a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or a person who was purporting to act in any such capacity, he, as well as the body corporate, is guilty of that offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.

In the case the OP describes, just saying "Well, it could have been anybody, I don't track the vehicle use at all" definitely falls under "attributable to neglect on the part of"

tommyjj

He did eventually track down the person who was driving at the time, but it took longer than the 28 days to find out. The police didn't seem interested in who was actually guilty once he'd been slapped with the penalty.

There seems to be a lack of consensus over whether a company director can actually get points in lieu of the actual driver surrendering his license.

Is it possible to have 12 penalty points and still keep your licence?

AdrianC

tommyjj wrote: »

There seems to be a lack of consensus over whether a company director can actually get points in lieu of the actual driver surrendering his license.

Only in the Blackadder Captain Redbeard Rum sense of "lack of consensus".
<points up precisely one post to the actual legislation stating explicitly that the director can be prosecuted in exactly the same way as an individual keeper.>

Is it possible to have 12 penalty points and still keep your licence?

Yes. He'll need to seriously convince the magistrate why he shouldn't be banned, and he can expect a BIG fine instead.