30's/40's/50's on minimum wage?

marybelle01

falko89 wrote: »

Now suppose when we open the flood gates again to Romania, and out of Romania came the finest crop of doctors, managers, professionals what would happen? Would native professionals still be paid the same? Not a hope in hell, all would be cut to the bare minimum.

Useful memo: when making arguments, check the facts you use.

It already happened!

If you read anything other than the Sun, the Mirror, and the Daily Mail (because it's even possible to get the facts from the Telegraph is you look hard enough - they may be biased but they generally try to avoid outright lies) - then you will know that there are no "floodgates" to be opened. Romanian and Bulgarian doctors, managers and professionals (and many others, on low wages, too) have had the right to enter and work in the UK since 2007. Those who have skill sets that are marketable are always able to migrate - and to command good salaries. Since the accession of these two countries in 2007 many doctors, managers and professionals have entered the UK legally and worked here. Joining UK born and bred doctor, managers and professionals; and doctors, managers and professionals from other EU countries and from around the world. There even, shock, horror, Asian and African born doctors, managers and professionals.

So are native professionals still paid the same? Well, yes. Oops.

falko89

TrickyWicky wrote: »

Funny you mention that falko. I know a lot of polish people.

They're absolutely dreading the Romainians and Bulgarians coming here.

When the Poles start complaining about the 'foreigners' coming here you know we're in trouble.

I saw a programme on ITV and the Poles are getting worried that the supposed influx will ruin things for them in the UK drive wages down further, I had to laugh when the guy said this. But I think this is all hype by the likes of the Daily Mail, I don't think things will be as bad as made out when they arrive.

falko89

marybelle01 wrote: »

Useful memo: when making arguments, check the facts you use.

It already happened!

If you read anything other than the Sun, the Mirror, and the Daily Mail (because it's even possible to get the facts from the Telegraph is you look hard enough - they may be biased but they generally try to avoid outright lies) - then you will know that there are no "floodgates" to be opened. Romanian and Bulgarian doctors, managers and professionals (and many others, on low wages, too) have had the right to enter and work in the UK since 2007. Those who have skill sets that are marketable are always able to migrate - and to command good salaries. Since the accession of these two countries in 2007 many doctors, managers and professionals have entered the UK legally and worked here. Joining UK born and bred doctor, managers and professionals; and doctors, managers and professionals from other EU countries and from around the world. There even, shock, horror, Asian and African born doctors, managers and professionals.

So are native professionals still paid the same? Well, yes. Oops.

I am fully aware of this, however professionals have not arrived in the same numbers as unskilled, certainly not enough to effect wages.

hugheskevi

Lot of people decide they don't need the responsibility, the late hours or the need to live through a job...

I hear this myself and it baffles me, certainly where I work the higher paid you are the less you actually do, no late nights here, the only folk hit with the overtime clause are the runts like myself while the managers etc can swan off home and be with their families.

I think in some, possibly many, workplaces there comes a point where you are being paid a very good amount, and to progress means big increases in responsibility and accountability (if not necessarily hours) but possibly only with a relatively small increase in reward.

Personally I am refusing to even consider promotion at work despite being asked. I earn a good salary, and promotion would probably be a 10% increase in salary but far, far more responsibility. I am in a position that I don't need the extra grief for 10%. Working out all the tax implications, it ends up something like the reward from 12 months in my current role equates to 10 months in the next role up. Simply not worth it to me.

On the theme of the thread, my aspiration is very much to be working in a minimum wage, or unpaid job, when I am in my 50s. My intention is to do something I really enjoy and consider worthwhile. For me, that is likely to be a manual job working around animal conservation. Although doing such things from choice rather than necessity is a completely different situation. Nonetheless, anyone judging me on working in a minimum wage job in my 50s would be utterly wrong.

Having travelled a lot around the world and met many folks from some of the richest in the UK to some of the poorest on the planet, I think anyone needs to know a lot of information before they judge someone. And it is best to avoid making judgements unless necessary (and it generally isn't necessary). If I am going indulge in generalisations, I'd say that some of the nicest and most generous people I've met are the poorest folks who have no involvement with capitalist society.

gadgetmind

falko89 wrote: »

But I think this is all hype by the likes of the Daily Mail,

Well, quite. The two polish guys in our office are both trying to grow their teams and are finding recruiting very difficult. The shortage of engineers in the UK means that it's more than likely that we'll be hiring someone from Spain or France.

Being able to also draw on well-educated, motivated, and skilled engineers from new EU territories can only make things easier, so these particular Polish people will be delighted.

TrickyWicky

PasturesNew wrote: »

Everything's great when you're in your 20s.

Really? When I was in my early 20s i was forced to leave home, ended up in a NMW job, barely able to pay rent yet alone eat and life was utterly miserable. Oh and then had my valuables nicked by the neighbourhood burglar.

My early 20s were absolutely horrible. Admittedly it did improve when I met my missus but I've been through hell.

Your 20s can be wonderful if you are born with the silver spoon (eg two working parents who have money left over after bills to give you a good upbringing and a stable base) but hell with anything less. I came from a one parent home and they were ****ing dellusional about everything.Didn't want to work, didn't want to make a better life for themselves, didn't want to give their kid a decent future etc. I've been right through the mill chum so telling everyone that their 20s are great is a eally stupid remark.

falko89 wrote: »

I saw a programme on ITV and the Poles are getting worried that the supposed influx will ruin things for them in the UK drive wages down further, I had to laugh when the guy said this. But I think this is all hype by the likes of the Daily Mail, I don't think things will be as bad as made out when they arrive.

You clearly don't know many poles then. I know plenty of them and they are genuinely worried. Not just for their own jobs but also for the increase in crime too.

I don't often disagree with you falko but on this one I do strongly. I know more than enough poles to know that they are genuinely getting worried.

marybelle01

falko89 wrote: »

I am fully aware of this, however professionals have not arrived in the same numbers as unskilled, certainly not enough to effect wages.

So let me get this right. You wanted to work in seasonal agricultural work, for the NMW unless the employer could skirt the law, then pay half of your wages to share a caravan with five other people, the rent being paid to your employer? Will that be before or after the revolution you want to plot?

There are fewer professionals full stop. So of course there are fewer professional jobs for migrants. Your point is? You said that professionals from other countries would drive down wages. They are here. They haven't.

Look, I am sorry you have a job you hate on the NMW when you are a time-served craftsman who used to command a skilled mans wage. But migrants didn't do that to you. The economy and consumer trends did that - many people no longer value the skills of craftsmen in so far as they are willing to pay the price their goods command. So your skills are redundant. You don't have to like it, I don't have to like it, but that is the truth of the matter. You aren't the first and you won't be the last.

So you can sit around on MSE bemoaning the fact and blaming everyone else, or you can do something about it by learning new skills, or moving, or whatever else migrants do to improve their lot. You seem to be blaming them for your problems rather than learning the lesson of what they are prepared to do to improve life.

But if you really are intent on the revolution, I suggest you read Gramsci on the theory of hegemony - capitalist society continues to thrive and prosper by convincing workers that their interests are best served by attacking other workers, rather than the institutions which perpetuate their poor conditions of labour.

dawyldthing

PasturesNew wrote: »

In some parts of the UK, it's possible to pay (low) rent and bills and do stuff .... but how'd you feel if rent went up by 50% and you were still doing that in 30 years' time when all your old mates had got married/moved away and you couldn't participate in social activities any more?

Everything's great when you're in your 20s.

I've got a mortgage so it shouldn't go up too much, but pay all the bills bar 80 for the direct debit for the electric and gas. Renting around here is around 400 odd for a house so if I rented and it went up to 600 I wouldn't be able to afford it, but I don't think there are many around here that would as i'd guess the average wages around here would be about 15k if you are lucky, so they would outprice a lot of people. Or i'd have to live with more people to share the rent and the bills like I used to as a student

paddedjohn

dawyldthing wrote: »

I've got a mortgage so it shouldn't go up too much, but pay all the bills bar 80 for the direct debit for the electric and gas. Renting around here is around 400 odd for a house so if I rented and it went up to 600 I wouldn't be able to afford it, but I don't think there are many around here that would as i'd guess the average wages around here would be about 15k if you are lucky, so they would outprice a lot of people. Or i'd have to live with more people to share the rent and the bills like I used to as a student

You obviously don't remember the days of 13/14/15% interest rates, it could happen again, never say never.;)

gadgetmind

dawyldthing wrote: »

i'd guess the average wages around here would be about 15k if you are lucky

So, roughly what employers (such as ourselves) pay 19/20yo sandwich students who've done two years at university but don't yet have a degree.

I'm not sure luck is as important a factor as you think it is.