APCOA Parking Charge Notice Luton

Sistershiptothetitanic

Received an APCOA Parking Charge Notice today showing my car in the layby/bus stop on the hill leading up to Luton Airport (just before the bridge). I was there and I was the driver but I had merely stopped to take a telephone call. At no time was the engine turned off and I never left the vehicle. After taking the call I proceeded to the top of the hill and entered the 'drop off zone' area where you pay £2.00 for 10 minutes.

Is there any mileage in me appealing to APCOA ? It was not my intention to avoid paying the charge (albeit I think it extortionate !). In the 3 photos printed in the letter you can see where I have in fact moved forward (in one my wheels are one side of the bump and in the last they have gone over the bump), so can prove the car was not stationary for long.

Moreover, I assumed this road was part of the public highway and not therefore subject to any driving laws unless enforced by the Police ? I am not certain what law I am supposed to have contravened !

Please help as I am CONFUSED !! :think:

Thanks

Umkomaas

First off, thanks for starting a new thread. You've obviously read, understood and acted as requested in my signature. That's a good start because the more you can read, understand and take your own action in this process, the more likely you will be able to succeed in it.

There are countless Luton Airport/APCOA threads from very recent times here on the forum. Use the excellent Forum Search Engine to locate these.

The search function is at the top of the index on the first page of the forum 'Search this Forum'. Select 'Show Threads' and just type in Luton Airport; it will bring up dozens of recent threads about the very same problem you are having. Read through a number of the most recent.

But before doing this you need to have a good grasp about what you need to do through the whole process and how everything 'fits in'. I've produced a 'Walk Through' of the whole process - start to finish - so have a read through this to set you on the right track. It's a generic template, but it covers most bases and most, if not all will apply to your situation.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=63678135&postcount=3

After doing some reading get back to us to discuss how you are going to approach this. Anything that's not clear ask, one or more of us will pitch in to guide you through.

HTH

Coupon-mad

Is there any mileage in me appealing to APCOA ?

Yes, as you will find when you do the search suggested by Umkomaas. I know you have read some other threads but a search finds you the most recent stuff and how APCOA have cancelled charges when they get a strong challenge.

Does your Notice mention the Protection of Freedoms Act or keeper liability on it anywhere at all (even on the back?).

Does your Notice use the word 'creditor' to identify APCOA anywhere, even in brackets or small print?

By the way answering these Qs is needed in addition to you searching the forum and reading up on how to beat this! We can't re-post the same old stuff every time, hence the search facility being suggested.

Sistershiptothetitanic

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Yes, as you will find when you do the search suggested by Umkomaas. I know you have read some other threads but a search finds you the most recent stuff and how APCOA have cancelled charges when they get a strong challenge.

Does your Notice mention the Protection of Freedoms Act or keeper liability on it anywhere at all (even on the back?).

Does your Notice use the word 'creditor' to identify APCOA anywhere, even in brackets or small print?

By the way answering these Qs is needed in addition to you searching the forum and reading up on how to beat this! We can't re-post the same old stuff every time, hence the search facility being suggested.

Thank you for taking the time to look at my post. I spent time trawling through the forum regarding parking/charges/penalties for overstaying time limits, etc. I have found a parallel case to my own (Tallone in September I think) in as much as I was not in a car park, and did not drop off/pick anyone up other than in a designated area.

In answer to your questions - there is no mention of 'Protections of Freedoms Act', 'keeper liability' or APCOA being a 'creditor'.

I have used Google Earth to look at the layby into which the car was briefly pulled over and managed to get a close up look at the parking restrictions signs. Firstly, they are placed up quite high on lamp posts and therefore not visible from the driver's side, unless you were to get out of the vehicle which I did not.

The signs appear to say that CCTV cameras are in use, that it is a private road, and it stipulates 'No stopping at any time to drop off or pick up'.

At this stage I have to assume that Google Earth is up-to-date and that the signs were there on the day the photos were taken. If necessary I could check this but it is a relatively long way to go to check, unless I have to.

Several issues have come to mind here, but would welcome your advice as to whether to hang my argument on any/all of them :

1. Is it a private road that leads up to Luton Airport ? This sign appears to say it is, but I do not recall seeing any other 'private road' signs further down. Also, who maintains the road ? if it were a private road then presumably the Airport ? if it is maintained by the normal highways commission or Luton Borough Council, or whoever normally maintains the country's roads, then surely it cannot be private ? This argument might require further investigations with LBC I expect.

2. The sign says that stopping is not permitted 'to drop off or pick up', but I pulled over into the layby to do neither of those things. Nobody got in or out of the vehicle and at no time was the engine turned off to park.

Also, should it be possible for them to check their cameras, etc to see that within a few minutes of them taking the photos of the car in the layby/bus stop, the car entered the drop-off area at the top near the Airport buildings and paid the £2.00 ? A 'contract' I entered into willingly, albeit I think it is an extortionate amount for the privilege ! Therefore there was no intention to deliberately avoid paying said fee for using their facilities.

Another thought (!) in connection with the length of time the car was in the layby - to your knowledge, is there any time limit as to how long one can pull over into a layby and not be parked ? The photos on the letter show a total of 56 seconds.

Moreover, the first para of their letter refers to this a an "alleged contravention" of 01 Failing to park in a designated parking area. As I have said before, the car was not actually parked in the sense of being there long enough to be deemed 'parked' - at least in my opinion.



Thank you for your input.

Coupon-mad

So the lack of any mention of 'registered keeper liability' nor POFA 2012 means that APCOA have left themselves only the possibility of pursuing the driver. And so in your challenge of course, and in ALL contact, you DO NOT imply who was driving at all. A registered keeper surely 'can't' lose at POPLA stage if the driver has not been identified and the keeper points out to POPLA that 'APCOA haven't bothered to invoke POFA 2012 so have thrown away any chance of keeper liability. The driver has not been identified and will not be. In any case, Luton Airport roads are covered by byelaws so this land isn't 'relevant land' under POFA anyway even if APCOA tried. Again, this shows there can be no registered keeper liability so the charge must be cancelled'. But that's for POPLA stage.

You could even use that as a sole appeal point at POPLA, as long as it's well written to make sure the assessor at that second stage can't miss it!

1. Is it a private road that leads up to Luton Airport ? This sign appears
to say it is, but I do not recall seeing any other 'private road' signs further
down. Also, who maintains the road ? if it were a private road then presumably the Airport ? if it is maintained by the normal highways commission or Luton Borough Council, or whoever normally maintains the country's roads, then surely it cannot be private ? This argument might require further investigations with LBC I expect.

Don't bother yourself or the Council on this point. The roads are owned by the Airport/landowner. We have zillions of threads about this place.

2. [STRIKE]The sign says that stopping is not permitted 'to drop off or pick up', but[/STRIKE] THE DRIVER pulled over into the layby to do neither of those things. Nobody got in or out of the vehicle and at no time was the engine turned off to park.

You could say this as part of your appeal but don't state what the signs said!!

And as I have shown, you as the keeper do not say 'I pulled over'! Also just to tell you that you will lose at POPLA if you only rely on 'what happened' (mitigating circumstances don't work at POPLA). You'd need to say the bit in blue above when it comes to POPLA, as long as you have never named nor implied who was driving!

[STRIKE]Also, should it be possible for them to check their cameras, etc to see that within a few minutes of them taking the photos of the car in the layby/bus stop, the car entered the drop-off area at the top near the Airport buildings and paid the £2.00 ? A 'contract' I entered into willingly, albeit I think it is an extortionate amount for the privilege ! Therefore there was no intention to deliberately avoid paying said fee for using their facilities.[/STRIKE]

I wouldn't draw their attention to checking their camera shots of the driver. Not that they can match a stranger's face to a name of course, but even so, nope, not recommended.

Another thought (!) in connection with the length of time the car was in the layby - to your knowledge, is there any time limit as to how long one can pull over into a layby and not be parked ? The photos on the letter show a total of 56 seconds.

You are getting muddled up with the 'real world' of Council parking tickets I think. This is 'PPC World'(!!) and they make it up as they go along, for profit, especially when not bothering with POFA 2012 (the law which would have possibly given them registered keeper liability...but not on Airport land).

I would send a basic appeal of the one-liner in red and ask for a POPLA code.

Then when you have your priceless POPLA code, I would appeal to POPLA with the bit in blue, obviously still writing ONLY as the registered keeper who is not legally liable! (No flowery introductions accidentally identifying 'the driver', or extra words about what happened. Be careful and stay as the keeper only). It would be good to see a POPLA case won on this point alone - which it surely would.

Sistershiptothetitanic

Thank you for your reply.

That's a lot for me to get my head around, however I will print it out tomorrow and go through it carefully before composing my letter to APCOA - don't want to mess up at the first hurdle !!

Will be in touch again.

Coupon-mad

''I would send a basic appeal of the one-liner in red and ask for a POPLA code.''

Easy. There is no composing needed.

Sistershiptothetitanic

HELP ! Coupon-mad, I took your advice and sent APCOA a brief letter dated 11.11.13 as follows :

Dear Sir or Madam,

Charge Notice No. : ***********
Vehicle Registration No. : ********

The unlawful issue of a ‘Notice to Keeper’ (BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22)

I am the registered KEEPER of motor vehicle registration no. KJ03 USU and refer to PCN dated 05/11/2013.

The DRIVER pulled over into the layby to neither park, drop off or pick up, and nobody got in or out of the vehicle, Also, at no time was the engine turned off to park.

I therefore expect you to immediately cancel this ‘parking charge’ and inform me, in writing that you have done so.

If however, you reject this challenge, then, in accordance with the BPA Ltd AOS Code of Practice (version 2) 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information (including the necessary ‘POPLA code’) so that I may immediately refer this matter (and any further issues that I may subsequently raise) for their adjudication on the matter.


Yours sincerely

Unfortunately they did not cancel their ticket and are basically saying I am "liable for a PCN if you fail to park in a designated parking area" and that as the vehicle was stopped in a restricted area it is considered parked.

I have however been issued with a POPLA verification code. May I ask you what approach to take in my appeal to POPLA ?

I am beginning to feel as though I should take the easy way out and pay the lesser amount of £40 as I fear being stung for £80, but there is a streak in me that knows this is totally unfair and want to continue to fight it !!

I look forward to your reply.
Thank you

Coupon-mad

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163


There's a ''newbies read this first'' sticky thread now, near the top of the forum, with a 'How to win at POPLA' link.

The_Slithy_Tove

Sistershiptothetitanic wrote: »

Unfortunately they did not cancel their ticket and are basically saying I am "liable for a PCN if you fail to park in a designated parking area" and that as the vehicle was stopped in a restricted area it is considered parked.

I have however been issued with a POPLA verification code. May I ask you what approach to take in my appeal to POPLA ?

I am beginning to feel as though I should take the easy way out and pay the lesser amount of £40 as I fear being stung for £80, but there is a streak in me that knows this is totally unfair and want to continue to fight it !!

!!!!!!! That is exactly what you've been told would happen. PPCs always reject appeals, the whole point for you being to get a POPLA code, where you can win. Why would you consider coughing up £40 or more to a bunch of scammers preferable to having to write one more letter, i.e. your POPLA appeal?

kirkbyinfurnesslad_2

The_Slithy_Tove wrote: »

!!!!!!! That is exactly what you've been told would happen. PPCs always reject appeals, the whole point for you being to get a POPLA code, where you can win. Why would you consider coughing up £40 or more to a bunch of scammers preferable to having to write one more letter, i.e. your POPLA appeal?

When will people start to listen