It's a gas - I'm shocked!! Can the utility companies be trusted?

kvetched

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moonrakerz wrote: »

"Dictionary definition of "kvetched":

Noun: A complainer, a fault finder.

Verb: To complain or whine, especially incessantly."

OK, so you purport to know how a dictionary works, now what?

I considered the nickname 'kvetched' applicable, if not appropriate, where consumer/corporate relations collide, no?

I suspect you might be a conspiracy theroist in your spare time.

"Go and take your garbage elsewhere - troll !"

Such a shame you didn't seek to take your own advice earlier before you posted.

You're mistaken though, I'm no troll, but you clearly get upset when you don't get your own way, which was only to be expected.

Hopefully you haven't compromised this thread with your hysterics and hedonistic antics.

Now, SHOO!

MarkyMarkD

This has been posted before (maybe in this thread - apologies if I've missed it).

Over-estimating usage is NOT over-charging. All it leads to is a cashflow disbenefit - you are paying for future energy usage in advance. You will get the money back.

At the very worst, all you will lose is a few pence of interest, UNLESS prices reduce while the reading is over-estimated. But conversely, if your reading was over-estimated whilst prices were rising, you will end up benefitting.

There is definitely no supplier conspiracy to over-estimate readings. They do their best to get it right.

kvetched

Hi MarkyMarkD,

Many thanks for your input.

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MarkyMarkD wrote: »

"This has been posted before (maybe in this thread - apologies if I've missed it)."

"Over-estimating usage is NOT over-charging. All it leads to is a cashflow disbenefit - you are paying for future energy usage in advance. You will get the money back."

In the case of British gas *reducing* its tariff in March of this year, where a reading is 'estimated' without a reading input from the customer since the last, it would be virtually impossible to ascertain accurately how much usage there had been in the period up to the new tariff price reduction... where the estimate is made post the new tariff price reduction, and dependant on how long before and after the price reduction introduction, it would again be virtually impossible to know if the estimate made by British Gas is over or under the 'actual' usage at the tariff transition date.

Specifically, and importantly it would be difficult to know if indeed a customer was losing any benefit from potentially having their bill over estimated. If they were being over estimated more than their actual usage past the tariff price reduction date, then that would most definitely cause an over charging of that customer to arise.

That it is a grey area and an unknown quantity where a meter reading is not taken and submitted, and an estimate is substituted, it leaves wide open the possibility of over as well as under charging, to which you have quite rightly alluded.

"At the very worst, all you will lose is a few pence of interest, UNLESS prices reduce while the reading is over-estimated. But conversely, if your reading was over-estimated whilst prices were rising, you will end up benefitting."

Indeed, you are correct, but the degree of loss is subject specifically to how great the over estimate is considered to be over and above the tariff price reduction change cut-off date.

There are four facets to the scenario you make, but that only one of the points (a) is the issue for those it affects aligned to the context of this thread:

(a) British Gas over estimate the *usage* - tariff is reduced from a higher tariff.
(b) British Gas under-estimate the *usage* - tariff is reduced from a higher tariff.
(c) British Gas over estimate the *usage* - tariff is increased from a lower tariff.
(d) British Gas under-estimate the *usage* - tariff is increased from a lower tariff.

"There is definitely no supplier conspiracy to over-estimate readings. They do their best to get it right."

British Gas will be aware that customers who do not:

1. Monitor such tariff changes

2. Provide regular readings

3. Provide accurate readings

4. Ensure a reading is submitted and recorded/accepted onto British Gas's billing system before the tariff changes (a).

5. Ensure British Gas do not estimate or specifically over estimate their usage (a).

... All relate directly to point (a), will be financially disadvantaged to a greater or lesser degree. What are negligible amounts to you or me to the order of £10.00 for example could mean the difference of food for one or two days to others, naturally greater hardship if the amount were more.

To clarify, sans 'conspiracy', British Gas will know that under certain conditions and certain circumstances British Gas will be denying their customers' (unknown quantity) from benefiting from neutrally balanced and available savings before any tariff price reduction is applied which will, if left unchecked, negate some of any savings possible.

For those customers who are over-estimated as per (a) they will be incurring greater costs - how much, can only be determined by the level of over estimation/s based on usage and the tariff change date.

British Gas has a duty of care to ensure it does not over or under estimate its customers so as to avoid losing money from a business point of view, as well as ensuring it is not exposing each of its customers to losing any benefits resultant from over estimations in the absence of a meter reading, before the introduction of such price reductions.

One way to minimize the possibility of British Gas capitalizing on over estimations, or conversely minimizing the prospect of a customer losing out on any savings where such tariff prices change for the better, is for British Gas to raise awareness of the benefits to customers by encouraging them to submit an accurate and current meter reading, bolstered by the advantages and benefits of customers doing so.

Where British Gas does not apply readily such clear cut explanation with reasonable transparency and pro-active measures regarding the encouragement and benefits to providing regular and accurate readings leading up to a tariff price reduction, one has to consider that it chooses not to because it (British Gas) can benefit from doing nothing.

Such inaction from British Gas on this issue alone can only affect its reputation over time and alienate those customers who are aware and may have been affected by such incidences/mistakes and subsequently found to have been disadvantaged later on, with little or no matter for recourse or ability to represent themselves and be taken seriously.

I don't have the answer to the whys and wherefores of British Gas' resistance to such transparency, but I know it does.

Thanks for your slant on the issue, it's been most helpful.

MarkyMarkD

You are a conspiracy theorist.

There's nothing to stop any customer of any gas or electricity from reading their meter on the date of a change in tariff, and notifying their supplier of that reading.

If the supplier does not issue a revised invoice based on that reading, the supplier has no basis for enforcing the incorrect invoice and they would lose a legal claim for recovery of their invoiced amount, if it went to court.

Doubtless a complaint to the relevant regulator would also be successful as there's no convincing reason for a supplier to refuse to use an actual customer reading, unless it is obviously fraudulent.

So, where does that all get us?

The only people who are going to end up overpaying are those who don't bother to read their meters when their tariff changes.

That's life. There's no realistic way for all suppliers to read all meters on the date of a tariff change.

If you are so close to the breadline that the difference between the old price and the new price, on the amount of an over- or under- estimated reading less the true reading, causes you financial hardship, you ought to be prepared to spend the 30 seconds it takes to read your meter.

I don't really have any sympathy with those who don't bother.

And I consequently don't accept that the suppliers are doing anything wrong in this matter.

BTW I have NO connection with any gas or electricity supplier in any way, shape or form.

kvetched

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MarkyMarkD wrote: »

"You are a conspiracy theorist."

I'm not sure how you discern that when I make it quite clear I base what British Gas has done, and actively applies, significant over estimating my personal usage when I had submitted a factually accurate reading less than one week out from the tariff price reduction transition date. I have also stated that I know of others who were similarly affected.

"There's nothing to stop any customer of any gas or electricity from reading their meter on the date of a change in tariff, and notifying their supplier of that reading."

True. By the same token, and in the interests of both customer and supplier, British Gas could do ‘more’ (well, something actually) to encourage such meter reading activity so as to avoid such potential problems to it customers, couldn't it?

"If the supplier does not issue a revised invoice based on that reading, the supplier has no basis for enforcing the incorrect invoice and they would lose a legal claim for recovery of their invoiced amount, if it went to court."

"Doubtless a complaint to the relevant regulator would also be successful as there's no convincing reason for a supplier to refuse to use an actual customer reading, unless it is obviously fraudulent."

"So, where does that all get us?"

All the more reason perhaps for British Gas in this instance to promote the benefits of regular meter readings, especially leading up to a favourable tariff price change, no?

The only people who are going to end up overpaying are those who don't bother to read their meters when their tariff changes.

I can't recall the last time British Gas for example, informed, promoted, encouraged, teased, advertised, poked, prodded, coerced, even tempted its customer base to provide regular and accurate meter readings outside of its terms and conditions to ensure their customers are able to take full advantage of any savings and/or ensure the prevention of any over charging, especially where there was a tariff price reduction looming, can you?

"That's life. There's no realistic way for all suppliers to read all meters on the date of a tariff change."

Well no, I agree, there isn't a way to have all meters read on any given transition date, but 'we're' not saying that is necessary per se, or even practicable.

What is necessary is that the customer needs to consider reducing the prospect of being significantly over charged by its supplier, and one way of doing that is to submit an appropriate meter reading at the shortest possible time before the tariff price reduction transition date ensuring it will be qualified by the system and that an over estimate of actual usage won't be charged at the higher tariff.

British Gas could, if it wanted to, advise its customer of that very method and timing if indeed it wanted its customers to benefit fully, and avoid being over changed. In the same vain it would curb the possibility of British Gas potentially losing revenue from under estimating customers' usage. I'm sure shareholders would agree with that simple business concept.

"If you are so close to the breadline that the difference between the old price and the new price, on the amount of an over- or under- estimated reading less the true reading, causes you financial hardship, you ought to be prepared to spend the 30 seconds it takes to read your meter."

I would agree with your notional idea that we are all equally equipped with grey matter or the ability to do just as you say - but no, we are not all cut from the same block, so there will always be people less able, adept and/or unwitting. I'm not less able or unknowing, and I established over charging by British Gas directly caused by a significant over estimating of my usage, even though as I have identified before, I submitted a meter reading less than one week out.

"I don't really have any sympathy with those who don't bother."

Don't you?

What about those who can be bothered, but just can't?

I suspect there must be OAPs out there who wish they could, but don't feel they'll be taken seriously enough, especially when they do try, but get a ‘simple’ five digit number jumbled up when attempting to convey their meter reading over the phone, for example.

"And I consequently don't accept that the suppliers are doing anything wrong in this matter."

If by doing little to nothing to promote and encourage customers to fully benefit from savings by not being over estimated leading up to a tariff price reduction, suppliers are considered by you to be doing nothing wrong, I wonder if your tolerance threshold of corporate inaction, limp support and overcharging, might be a tad high.

"BTW I have NO connection with any gas or electricity supplier in any way, shape or form."

By "NO connection" do you mean by affiliation? Or do you mean you are self sufficient and use micro-wind turbines and solar power? Perhaps you mean both.

MarkyMarkD wrote: »

Xbigman

My fuel company's billing process is easy to understand

The real issue in all this is estimated billing, which is rubbish and needs to go.
But;
The problems with estimates being high actually means that, when the energy company takes the midpoint in the bill on an increase, you actually payed for too much at the lower rate (IE you saved money). Being underestimated means it costs you money as you paid too much at the higher rate. Although you only see this benefit when you put in the correct reading on a *later* bill. If you read the meter on changeover day and called it in, you pay the correct bill

Now, if they were to underestimate in their favour when increasing prices, then overestimate when decreasing prices then *that* would be a fiddle.
However, the energy companies are pretty consistent over estimators, which means price changes being out of whack is not a fiddle (but might be incompetent).

In fact it is easier for customers to fiddle the system and defraud the energy companies than it is the companies to fiddle the customer. I'll let you work out that one for yourself though.

Whilst I'm here. I voted that I trust my energy company bills, which is Ebico. I wonder how many of the others that voted that way are with them too.
Regards



X

beanzy_2

Hi all, see below an email I have just posted to British Gas. This is raising big alarm bells for me, so we'll see what happens when I get a reply. Has this happened to anybody else?

EMAIL CONTENT

Hi there,

I have just received a letter telling me that my monthly electricity direct debit is to increase from £16 to £45 per month. When I applied to switch from Npower in April last year, I used a comparison site www.simplyswitch.com. I fed in that my existing payments were £16 per month to Npower for electricity, and the quote came back that with British Gas 102-395 on the ‘Click Energy’ tariff, I would save 50% and my new cost per annum would be £80.63 as opposed to £160 I was paying to Npower per annum. Not only is this new suggested debit horrendously expensive (£540 per annum), it is not what I signed up for, and this will be a major problem for me. I also believe that the Click tarrifs at the time were frozen until 2009. Can somebody please explain this to me as I did not swith from Npower so that I could pay significantly higher bills.

END OF EMAIL...

Incidentally, I didn't get the £15 sign up bonus from the reward site either (can't remember which one it was)