It's a gas - I'm shocked!! Can the utility companies be trusted?

kvetched

This is NOT a gripe...

Those of you with British Gas will recall they introduced a 'price reduction' on March 11th 2007 - Great! Or so they would have you believe.

Whilst it is true that British Gas did indeed drop it's prices by way of the 2008 package which no longer tied people into the longer term packages which effectively would have cost you more; British Gas have been very sneaky - yes, very very sneaky!

Any saving you may or may not be making, (regardless of the price reductions) will result only in the level of your attention to detail YOU apply to your bill and how they are 'estimating' your usage.

I addressed this with them twice a couple of months ago and was told that their system was not able to define usages for a recalculation because, as they state "We are currently upgrading our billing system. While this is in progress, please use your previous account to view your bill history." That billing system upgrade has been lingering for what seems forever - a bit like a Google beta if you will, but much much more serious - I digress.

About a week before the price increase came into effect on 11th March this year, I decided to submit a meter reading for both gas and electricity - I had established that the most my bills would be out of whack would be a matter of pence out of my favour, but that was assuming BG would use my meter reading - they did not - instead, they used their own estimate of my usage for the entire period which was 'roughly' calculated to be about '£10.00 +/-' for the gas, but that the electricity would have to be calculated by an escalation team (accounts presumably).

Whilst on the blower to BG I asked the representative if BG would have made the necessary adjustments to reconcile what effectively was a significant disparity of real usage to that of their ad hoc consumer usage estimations - naturally the British Gas representative was unable and perhaps unwilling to comment.

Two months on, there has been no adjustment made to either my gas or electricity bill, BUT...

... British Gas have deposited back to the bank account over £60.00, for what I believe to be a silent 'goodwill' gesture'. NB. It is not a payment back from both gas and electricity accounts resultant form too higher direct debit payments being made over the year. Nor is it residual credit balances from the accounts.

Even if the margins of British Gas's estimated disparity for gas and/or electricity are a mere £10.00 +/- per British Gas dual fuel consumer, I would hazard a guess that such an amount of unadjusted, over-estimated, effectively overcharged, un-refunded 'revenue' is likely to counter its price reduction 'benefit' to the consumer. In other words the consumer is likely not to feel the real benefits of any price reduction because the consumer will already have paid up front for the reduction. But then, that's just my opinion, all of which can be verifiably proven.

Certainly a serious issue needs to be raised and addressed of British Gas's handling of such calculations, not least its ethics. Clearly, British Gas's boffins who are recruited to conjure such micro-methods of revenue generation know that the public will instinctively rub its hands at the thought of a price reductions leading to complete distraction of the apparent unscrupulous methods and behaviour of British Gas behind the scenes attempts to hide 'naturally occurring' costs which go unnoticed and undisputed.

I thought the utility companies had an obligation to actually apply transparency, not just appear to be transparent. I wonder what energywatch is doing about it.

Has anyone else experienced similar, or thought there was something amiss with the way British Gas have managed their bills? If so, let MSE know what happened with your gas or electricity bill. Q&A invited.

kvetched

kvetched wrote: »

[... ]

Even if the margins of British Gas's estimated disparity for gas and/or electricity are a mere £10.00 +/- per British Gas dual fuel consumer, I would hazard a guess that such an amount of unadjusted, over-estimated, effectively overcharged, un-refunded 'revenue' is likely to counter its price reduction 'benefit' to the consumer. In other words the consumer is likely not to feel the real benefits of any price reduction because the consumer will already have paid up front for the reduction. But then, that's just my opinion, all of which can be verifiably proven.

[... ]

It's worth adding that all British Gas customers will, in one way or another, have had their usage period for March billed in an estimated way.

All customers will effectively have been charged the higher tariff because British Gas will have estimated their usage, and where that estimated usage is likely to be higher than actual usage upto 11th March (prior to the price reduction) any over estimated usage will be charged at the higher tariff and not the new reduced price tariff.

It is necessary to understand the mechanism by which British Gas have used deception with their pre/post 11th March cut-off, usage estimation and the higher tariff they will have used, in order to know where and how British Gas have cleverly over-charged consumers.

What I don't see British gas doing, is volunteering refunds where they will know they will have overestimated customers usages, effectively overcharging their bill.

If you know how many customers British Gas has on its books you can easily discover how much British Gas has made by overcharging customers by at least £10 (> an extremely conservative 'estimate') each household. It will run into millions of pounds of customers’ money - and that's a fact!

If you want to save money, ask them (British Gas) exactly how they calculated your bill for March 2007, and how can they be sure they didn't overestimate your usage and thus overcharge you for what you are likely not to have used on the old tariff.

I'm sure the MSE (Martin) could explain it much better than I ever could.

Cardew

kvetched wrote: »

If you know how many customers British Gas has on its books you can easily discover how much British Gas has made by overcharging customers by at least £10 (> an extremely conservative 'estimate') each household. It will run into millions of pounds of customers’ money - and that's a fact!

Welcome to the Forum.

This subject has been covered a number of times.

The normal estimated figure at the price change date is calculated by a sophisticated algorithm that takes into account the daily temperature and other criteria. In fact BG changed their standard tariff twice – in March and April.

That BG accounts/customer service are a mess is beyond dispute. However I don’t think there is any evidence of systematic manipulation of the estimated readings in their favour.

I cannot see how you can assume that an error in your individual account, in BG’s favour, has been applied to all their accounts. In fact there are some pretty ‘switched on’ people on this site who would have picked up such an error.

If I understand you correctly, what you are alleging is deliberate fraud. If you have any evidence of that fraud you should report it to the Regulator and/or Trading Standards.

However to be honest I cannot see from your posts that you have shown any evidence at all that BG have made other than a mistake on your account.

Why "at least £10"?

If you read through this forum you will find that the biggest complaint is that BG and other Utility Companies tend to massively under-estimate meter readings(leading to huge debit balances when correct readings are obtained). Such under-estimated readings would work in favour of customers when prices are being reduced.

It is pertinent to point out that some Utility Companies announced a date for their price cuts on 01 April but those cuts for existing users will not be implemented until the next billing period. i.e. if you get a bill on, say, 30th June you will pay at the old(higher rate) until 30 June despite announced cuts taking effect from 01 April.

kvetched

See in line...

Cardew wrote: »

"Welcome to the Forum."

Thank you.

"This subject has been covered a number of times.

The normal estimated figure at the price change date is calculated by a sophisticated algorithm that takes into account the daily temperature and other criteria. In fact BG changed their standard tariff twice – in March and April."

Indeed they did change the tariff twice – I, however simply point to the first of the tariff changes this year, and explained specifically that I took a meter reading less than one week out from that change, and it was that which resulted in BG’s assertion that a figure of £6.00 on gas alone was overestimated - it was estimated by the same representative that the electricity appears to be out by about £4.00 or more, but that would need 'escalating'.

How British Gas calculate customer bills with whatever methods they use to "take into account the daily temperature and other criteria" is irrelevant if indeed those methods for calculation are clouded by inaccurate overestimates leading to costing the consumer more than it should. I am on the correct forum here, yes?

"That BG accounts/customer service are a mess is beyond dispute. However I don’t think there is any evidence of systematic manipulation of the estimated readings in their favour."

How would you know? It's fair to say that those consumers that don't know of a problem are unlikely to complain, but I take your point. Regardless, we are debating here that mistakes do get made by British Gas, and such mistakes are not, across the board easily resolved for consumers. I say to British Gas, ‘don’t keep making the same mistakes which it has the wherewithal to prevent’.

"I cannot see how you can assume that an error in your individual account, in BG’s favour, has been applied to all their accounts. In fact there are some pretty ‘switched on’ people on this site who would have picked up such an error."

Indeed, that is why I joined up today to share with you and other like-minded MSE forum participants, that very identity of British Gas's over-estimating of consumer fuel bills - I can’t possibly be the only one - I do though appear to be the first ‘switched on’ to raise this particular issue specifically. It is at the point a bill is estimated and a tariff change made, is where the problem manifests itself, and I don’t doubt for one minute that British Gas know that to be the case – why wouldn’t they, it’s their business, and its their method of carrying on business regarding billing. I can’t be the first to ‘switch on’ surely?

"If I understand you correctly, what you are alleging is deliberate fraud."

No, you do not understand correctly, I alleged nothing - I state clearly and to the point that British Gas has as a matter of fact made over-estimations and thus miscalculated my billing period for March where there was a tariff change - for your benefit then, let's surmise that just 25% of all British Gas unwitting customers were affected by the ‘anomaly’, that still wouldn't take the overcharging of customers out of the millions of pounds - wittingly or unwittingly on British Gas's part.

"If you have any evidence of that fraud you should report it to the Regulator and/or Trading Standards."

Any evidence of that could only be provided by British Gas, of course.

"However to be honest I cannot see from your posts that you have shown any evidence at all that BG have made other than a mistake on your account."

You are the one that interpreted the fraud allegation, so it is not encumbered of me to prove anything.

Yes, British Gas made a mistake, and I know that I am not the only one to have established such a mistake having been made. Where British Gas get it wrong and that they too have "pretty switched on people" working for them, one cannot help but suspect a blind eye or two being turned to something which most consider trivial where mere pence or a few pounds are concerned; well actually millions of pounds if the truth will out.

"Why "at least £10"?"

I was clear when I identified that I submitted a meter reading less than one week out from the tariff change, so if that amounted to "at least £10" it's fair and reasonable to think other customers are quite likely to be hit for more especially if their meter reading was submitted further out or not at all.

"If you read through this forum you will find that the biggest complaint is that BG and other Utility Companies tend to massively under-estimate meter readings (leading to huge debit balances when correct readings are obtained). Such under-estimated readings would work in favour of customers when prices are being reduced."

Sure - So? The issue here is of those affected, not those who are unaffected by British Gas's calculation mistake due to erroneous over-estimations.

"It is pertinent to point out that some Utility Companies announced a date for their price cuts on 01 April but those cuts for existing users will not be implemented until the next billing period. i.e. if you get a bill on, say, 30th June you will pay at the old(higher rate) until 30 June despite announced cuts taking effect from 01 April."

No, it is not pertinent, it's irrelevant. What is relevant is the 'estimate or estimates' at the point at which a new tariff begins which is important and needs to be assessed as close to accurate of the customers actual usage; where it is not an accurate reflection of the customers usage, and in excess of the customers actual usage it will mean British Gas wins, and the consumer effected by such an inaccuracy will lose. That is likely to be a significant number of OAPs for a kick off just as one example, let alone others who just can't be arsed to work out if they've been rolled by British Gas.

Cardew

I somehow knew I shouldn't have presented an alternative opinion!

The issue of all Utility companies 'fudging' estimated meter readings in their favour has been covered many times in this forum if you care to search.

It seems to me that you have simply explained that BG have made an error in your case and that is some sort of proof that:

If you know how many customers British Gas has on its books you can easily discover how much British Gas has made by overcharging customers by at least £10 (> an extremely conservative 'estimate') each household. It will run into millions of pounds of customers’ money - and that's a fact!

If you wish to believe that is correct then so be it!

I am no apologist for BG. However I have given my point of view, and am not prepared to get into further semantic discusion on your theories or facts.

kvetched

If as you say "The issue of all Utility companies 'fudging' estimated meter readings in their favour has been covered many times in this forum... “, it seems a clear identity that the problem is worse than first thought, and that British Gas alone is unable to control its system for billing customers correctly and charge people for what they use and not what they don't use.

It's irrelevant how many have been affected and continue to be affected - that the problem continues to be allowed to occur and affect its customer’s pockets doesn't make it right.

Cardew wrote: »

I somehow knew I shouldn't have presented an alternative opinion!

The issue of all Utility companies 'fudging' estimated meter readings in their favour has been covered many times in this forum if you care to search.

It seems to me that you have simply explained that BG have made an error in your case and that is some sort of proof that:



If you wish to believe that is correct then so be it!

I am no apologist for BG. However I have given my point of view, and am not prepared to get into further semantic discusion on your theories or facts.

My having created this thread was not about me, and certainly never intended to be about you or your sensibilities for that matter, but of an evident flaw in the way people have their bills calculated by British Gas where estimates and tariff changes take place.

It doesn't matter what I believe, what matters is where such overcharging takes place someone or something needs to put a stop to it - especially when supposed price reductions and savings are promised.

My having highlighted my position is unlikely to be an isolated case as I have previously attested. The reimbursement I received from British Gas is enough for me to know that calling British Gas on the very point of overcharging yielded me over sixty quid when the reality was probably just over a tenner - Now I know MoneySavingExpert.com and its "switched on" readers appreciate my contribution, why don't you?

The decidedly inconvenient aspect for the consumer of a company like British Gas is that it prefers resolution to a given problem to be undertaken on a customer by customer basis – Hush, hush, you know.

I never thought you to be an apologist for being an apologist, but to say "I somehow knew I shouldn't have presented an alternative opinion!" after having posted over 3,000 posts, suggests confusion, although it's clear your posts on this thread were far from simply to convey an "opinion", but an attempt at putting a newbie in it's place, falling well short of opinion… more a snipe.

Fact: Customers of British Gas have been over estimated on their electricity and/or gas usage and then charged the incorrect tariff leading to overcharging. When British Gas overcharge due to erroneous estimations such effects impact on others and those 'others' are invariably, the frail, the less equipped to handle their affairs without support and the poor who often have far more pressing things to contend with. Only a Pollyanna type individual would think otherwise.

That there, Cardew, is not an attempt at playing a game of semantics, it's communication.

JCR

Well articulated Kvetched - wish I could have been so elonquent when I was writing my posts, maybe I wouldn't have then incurred the Cardew condescension telling me that I was obfuscating.

kvetched

I'm sure Cardew means well, but invariably he and the like can lose their way over time where 'favourable' posted responses lend themselves to massaging their egos in the absence of it happening in the real world.

You and I as 'newbie’s' to MSE cannot account for other people's 'irrationale', not least, a seasoned forum posting participant like Cardew will perhaps perceive we mere 'newbie’s' as 'know-nothing's'.

You never know who you're dealing with in our day to day contact of people, so it stands to reason we can't possibly pre-empt who we might be dealing with on the 'net in its varying forms. That's where caution and respect of others should be exercised.

I'm sure he's since taken stock and a breather, and consequently checked himself - let's hope so anyway, as it appears he's made a fine contribution to MSE.

We all slip on occasion without exception, Cardew just happened to land on his @rse on that day.

Thank you, JCR for your comments in support - Take care!

moonrakerz

kvetched wrote: »

I'm sure Cardew means well, but invariably he and the like can lose their way over time where 'favourable' posted responses lend themselves to massaging their egos in the absence of it happening in the real world.

You and I as 'newbie’s' to MSE cannot account for other people's 'irrationale', not least, a seasoned forum posting participant like Cardew will perhaps perceive we mere 'newbie’s' as 'know-nothing's'.

You never know who you're dealing with in our day to day contact of people, so it stands to reason we can't possibly pre-empt who we might be dealing with on the 'net in its varying forms. That's where caution and respect of others should be exercised.

I'm sure he's since taken stock and a breather, and consequently checked himself - let's hope so anyway, as it appears he's made a fine contribution to MSE.

We all slip on occasion without exception, Cardew just happened to land on his @rse on that day.

Thank you, JCR for your comments in support - Take care!

What a sad post !

If you think that "posters" of long-standing on this website use it solely to "massage" their egos; then your post, full of self congratulatory plaudits is the largest slice of hypocrisy that I have come across in many a day !

However, you do seem to have a balanced view - you have a chip on both shoulders.

kvetched

See inline...

moonrakerz wrote: »

"What a sad post !"

I agree, you as well as your "sad post" are ineded sad - Well defined, that man!

Try to be a tad more specific next time.

"If you think that "posters" of long-standing on this website use it solely to "massage" their egos; then your post, full of self congratulatory plaudits is the largest slice of hypocrisy that I have come across in many a day !"

If you didn't take personally anything conveyed in my posts on behalf of Cardew, and instead appreciated that Cardew, like you now, jump readily onto your soapboxes believing that as a "long-standing poster" you have a right to make futile attempts to belittle, and denigrate newcomers to MSE who simply seek to make a contribution, you wouldn't appear right now to be spitting what few teeth you might have left.

You and "long-standing posters" alike don't own this forum - you might like to think you do, but you don't. You may have posted more posts, been associated with this forum for longer, but that doesn't make you any better than anyone else who posts to MSE.

This is a mutually beneficial forum of supposed like minded people providing experiences, inquiries, seeking help guidance and support, but certainly not what you are now doing. And what I now do is purely in response to your obtuse and infantile behaviour.

That you accuse me of doing exactly what you have just now done with your post in response to mine without any meaningful address to either the main thrust of the thread or the content of the subject I am grateful not to have become like you, a sycophantic lapdog to Cardew.

Cardew clearly took the higher moral ground by not responding, you just could help yourself, evidently.

"However, you do seem to have a balanced view - you have a chip on both shoulders."

How long exactly have you been waiting in the wings to use that one?

moonrakerz, you're a joke - Let's just hope you overcome your propensity to react in an uncontrollable manner to those blood rushes to the head you evidently suffer.

I'm sure, as a "long-standing" poster to MSE you are, you're pleased with yourself and with your attempt at hijacking a thread which was intended not for you but for those British Gas customers who may have been affected by the thrust of the subject and information provided, not least the prospect of them saving money. Again, this is the correct forum for such matters, yes?

I won't report you on this occasion for your uncontrollable and emotional outburst, but do feel free to flex more the metaphorically "long-standing" impotent muscle of yours, on my behalf.

Anyone else while my pants are down?

moonrakerz

Dictionary definition of "kvetched":

Noun: A complainer, a fault finder.

Verb: To complain or whine, especially incessantly.

Go and take your garbage elsewhere - troll !

PS: don't bother reporting me - I've already reported you - goodbye !