Orange - Call charges of £2,500!!!

OrangeHelp

Help, please... Where do we go from here?

History - from 21st Jan to 23rd Feb calls have been charged to us totalling approx. £2,500 (!)...

Feb 2007 - Spoke to Orange in Feb ( upon receipt of the bill ) and requested a bar on the phone and investigation, and explained that the phone concerned is actually located in Poland ( as my husband is currently working there ) - the last time it was in the UK was Sept. last year. I was advised that it would go to their Fraud dept. as activity certainly was unusual and the number being called is the same number that appears to call, disonnected and within a few seconds reconnects.

April 2007 - Got a demand for payment together with a threat of credit rating being affected. Contacted Orange again - who apologised for inconvenience, the account was still under investigation and they would stop further notices coming out until we had heard from their fraud dept. They were advised at this time that they could not contact me on my UK mobile after the following Monday as I was going out to Poland to join my husband and offered them both my email address and a Polish mobile phone number - they would not accept these and advised they do not send correspondence via email but confirmed that they would write to us.

June 2007 - No news from fraud dept. BUT another demand for payment together with the threat of affecting our credit rating. Again I contacted them... Spoke to Geoff XXXX who said that they had done a "call integraty" test and the calls appear to come from our phone and therefore we are liable... I queried what the outcome of the "fraud" investigation was and he said that that was still ongoing but that he would chase up the "fraud team" and phone me back... He phoned me back ( on my husband's mobile in Poland ) about an hour later to advise that "fraud dept" came up with nothing therefore we have no choice but to pay the £2,500!... Naturally, with me in shock, we ended our telephone call. A short time later I went back to Orange - to speak to Geoff XXXX and was told that the guy on the phone he could not find that employee in his directory, he then put me through to Jedd XXXX. I asked Jedd for a " Fraud Department Case number " so that we could take the matter further at which time he advised that it never went to the fraud department as they didn't think it neccessary! I was exasperated!!! After advising us not only in Feb, but also April and again only about one hour earlier that it was with their fraud department!!!! Next he asked if we had the phone - we said yes, he asked us to open the back and give him the SIM card number. We did this - he then advised us that that SIM card is not registered and that someone must have entered my husband's apartment in Poland, taken out his SIM card and replaced it with the "unregistered" one!!! ( Note, went to the trouble of taking out the SIM card, putting in another one AND not take the phone!! or any other equipment ie TV, DVD, Laptop etc!! in the apartment )... He then asked if I wanted him to put me through to their collections department to arrange payment!!!... - WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE.... PLEASE HELP.

PS we have been with Orange for well over 10 years!! ( probably spent only this much in the entire period!! ) - according to them the activity was not "unusual" and therefore did not warrant an investigation.

Woby_Tide

have they actually identified what the number is though thats being called. it's been your husbands phoen polling an email server via WAP or something like that hence the roaming charges have kicked in.

Not sure what else to say really, they are obviously clutching at straws in some respects as they must know that if they can ring your husbands mobile number then teh SIM is valid. Also they must know what SIM number they think he should be using, they should have records of when that 'stolen' SIM connected to their system. They definitely have more to prove than you currently but identifying where the calls went is a starting point, seems odd behaviour for someone to 'clone' a sim and use it as they have done so far.

OrangeHelp

Thanks for getting back... initially there were 2 mobile phone numbers ( 3 calls ) and thereafter to the same number. Re the first 2 numbers - they say due to data protection they can't get details and re. the following 100's of calls - they say to a cheap phone call provider to connect and then a second number is called ( again they say due to data protection they can't investigate further )... SIM card - the card that we have in the phone ( as far as we are concerned this is the SIM since we've had the phone ( probably about 8 years now ) they say is not registered and the one the calls are made from, they gave us the number, but will not give us any further info. Any idea where/how we can get SIM card - there must be a way?!?

EdCov

More info would be helpful to be able to help.

Is it a contract phone or a PAYG?

What are your normal bill amounts?

If it is contract and your bill amounts are substantially smaller then they have a responsibility to do something once the amounts start to get large, ie cut you off. You pay them a contract and I would argue that gives you some rights under consumer legislation. If PAYG they have certain responsibilities to you.

Is the cheap call provider UK or Polish? If it is UK I would argue it is under the UK law and police and you can pursue it down that line.

If it is Polish then try that route, if you believe it is stolen or fraud then the police should help and then it is legal matter and covered by data protection on that matter.

The SIM number in use though is interesting. Orange should have a record of that SIM number and when it was first used and where. I would ask for that information.

However data protection if the phone is in your husband's name, then they will not be able to talk to you for reasons of data protection.

The cheapest answer may be for your husband to either get a cheap flight back and sort it out or find a cheap way to call Orange in the UK and talk to them himself.

OrangeHelp

To answer your questions...

The phone is contract ( we have his phone and mine on the same account )- although when my husband started work in Poland we had it changed to Orange EQ Virgin tarriff ( this is no monthly charge but we are billed monthly, on our account, for calls made ).

Normal bill charges - on his number = £0.00 for probably the past year; on mine anything averaging between £4.00 upto £60 ( again over the past year - some months a bit higher when making additional calls to Poland ).

Cheap call provider appears to be English as 1) number begins 0844 ( no international dialling code ) and 2) Orange have informed us that this number charges low rate tarriff of 3p/min. for calls. ( Their, Orange, charges are then on top of that ).

When I last spoke to Orange on Friday, they would not give me any further information regarding the SIM cards... Perhaps I should try again?!?

As mentioned previously - as my phone is also on the account I have authorisation to deal with things. The data protection question arises because when I asked Orange re the calls made they have stated that they cannot get any further information regarding those number due to data protection act.

Unfortunately.. having now spoken to Orange on six occasions their "Customer Service" Dept just say that we have to pay the bill - they have said that they will not refer to their fraud dept.; they cannot investigate the calls any further due to data protection and the only alternative is to pay.

It really seems so unfair!! The calls are being made from a SIM card and phone we don't have and yet the are prepared to do nothing about it!

I will contact Orange again re the SIM card hitory - Do you know if Orange are obliged to give us this information?

Thanks for all your help...

Cheers

espresso

OrangeHelp wrote:

Spoke to Geoff XXXX who said that they had done a "call integraty" test and the calls appear to come from our phone and therefore we are liable...

When a call is made the IMEI number of the handset used is sent over the network, so they can see which handset has been used made to make these calls.

He phoned me back ( on my husband's mobile in Poland ) about an hour later to advise that "fraud dept" came up with nothing therefore we have no choice but to pay the £2,500!...

So surely that proves that you still had the original SIM and not a replacement unregistered SIM.

Next he asked if we had the phone - we said yes, he asked us to open the back and give him the SIM card number. We did this - he then advised us that that SIM card is not registered and that someone must have entered my husband's apartment in Poland, taken out his SIM card and replaced it with the "unregistered" one!!!

If the SIM that you are supposed to have now is not registered, can you make or receive calls on it and what is it's mobile number?

It really seems so unfair!! The calls are being made from a SIM card and phone we don't have and yet the are prepared to do nothing about it!

Have you tried sorting this out by e-mailing [EMAIL="executive.office@orange.co.uk"]executive.office@orange.co.uk[/EMAIL] If you don't have the original SIM and you have not reported it lost/missing/stolen, then yes you are liable.

g33za

Did you pin protect your sim? usually this is the first step to protecting you in this kind of situation if the phone/sim is lost.

FF99

No real idea, but I wonder whether somebody could have cloned your husband's SIM i.e. made a copy. This could mean either that you have the copy or the thief has the copy, but in either case you can both make calls using the same number and account. I don't think that is very difficult to do and there are plenty of people on Ebay selling the kit for around £20.

OrangeHelp

Hi espresso,

Probably aware that I know next to nothing about mobile phones, so

Re. IMEI - so do I need to go back to Orange and confirm that the IMEI number on the handset we have in Poland = that they have ?

Re. SIM - no... They phoned my husbands work Polish mobile. Not the one in question. The one in the phone Orange is saying is not registered - no calls can be made or received from it ( Can I get the history of this SIM card ? ). As for has it a phone number - I don't know... How would I find that out.

Re. Have we contacted the [EMAIL="executive.office@orange.co.uk"]executive.office@orange.co.uk[/EMAIL]? I will give that a go. Regarding reporting the SIM card.. As far as we are concerned the SIM card and phone we have are the original.

So, can you advise how I can get the history of the SIM cards ( the one we have in the phone ) and the one that Orange has details of?

OrangeHelp

Dear F99 and g33za

I'll keep going... You'll see from response to espresso that the SIM in the phone is not registered therefore not receiving or making calls.. re protection, will have to check that with my husband...

Thanks - if you think of anything else would be grateful.

Cheers

espresso

OrangeHelp wrote: »

Hi espresso,

Probably aware that I know next to nothing about mobile phones, so

Re. IMEI - so do I need to go back to Orange and confirm that the IMEI number on the handset we have in Poland = that they have ?

Well they would know the IMEI number of the handset that was used to make these calls, as an IMEI number is supposed to be unique. You can display the handsets IMEI number by entering *#06# into the handset.

Re. SIM - no... They phoned my husbands work Polish mobile. Not the one in question. The one in the phone Orange is saying is not registered - no calls can be made or received from it ( Can I get the history of this SIM card ? ). As for has it a phone number - I don't know... How would I find that out.

So it does sound like your original SIM has been stolen and replaced by an unregistered one. Why was this not noticed? If someone has stolen your original SIM to make these calls, they would have also had to clone the IMEI number of your handset, otherwise this would show up on the call records as being made from a different handset, although if you failed to report it stolen, you would still be liable for the calls made. i.e. you may have just put your SIM into a new/different handset.

Re. Have we contacted the [EMAIL="executive.office@orange.co.uk"]executive.office@orange.co.uk[/EMAIL]? I will give that a go. Regarding reporting the SIM card.. As far as we are concerned the SIM card and phone we have are the original.

But you have said that it can't make or receive calls.

So, can you advise how I can get the history of the SIM cards ( the one we have in the phone ) and the one that Orange has details of?

I don't know what rights you have regarding getting this information from Orange to dispute this, you may need to get some expert advice on this.