CP+ and Railway Byelaws

Puddings

Thanks everyone,

I've spent a long time reading all the threads and I'm getting myself in a muddle. I should be able to do this, I can understand the grey lines of employment law but my brain wont get itself around this.

SO, I have my NTO - do I reply with the 'robustly respond' letter and send a further letter of appeal directly to CP?

OR do I send a further appeal letter (as per Frazell http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=63700064&postcount=71 who has a very similar case to mine) to both PCS and CP? And also the TOC.

Or maybe I write directly to CP being incensed that they began with alleging byelaws and it is now a private parking charge?

I'm very sorry I'm being so thick.

Puddings

Ok, I've had a bash at the next letter (don't want to appear too helpless, you guys have done an excellent job with the stickies!)

I'm planning on sending this directly to CP:
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Dear Sirs,

I refer to the recent Notice to Ownerdated XXX from Parking Collection Services in relation to an allegedparking contravention on XXX.

On the date in question I was the registered keeper of a MAKE with the registration number XXX.

I enclose a copy of the appeal letter that was sent directly to you by post on 24/10/2013 that I have not received a response to.

I am surprised that you have referredthe Parking charge to PCS without considering my appeal in full and wouldsuggest that ignoring my appeal is a breach of the BPA Code of Practice whichCP Plus should adhere to as BPA AOS members.

My previous correspondence (enclosed)requested confirmation of whether the penalty was issued under byelaws andindicating TOC involvement or whether any appeal will be processed under theProtection of Freedoms Act 2012 and via POPLA.

The Notice to Owner recently receivedincludes no mention of byelaws or TOC involvement which causes further confusion.

I request, again, that you considercancelling this ticket because the driver was a paying customer and did indeedhave a valid parking ticket on the day, a copy of which is enclosed. This carpark and railway station is being redeveloped which has decreased the number ofparking spaces available. The driver avoided any hatched areas and doubleyellow lines and there were no signs where the car was parked, which was in aperfectly sensible and non-obstructive place which is frequently used by manydrivers.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

And then I don't know whether to also steal the last bit of Frazells letter that he sent and add:

Ibelieve the charges levied are punitive, unfair and unreasonable given theactual loss to the business or landowner/landholder. Please note that althoughI dispute the whole basis of the parking charge, my main concern is itsdisproportionate and punitive level.

Can you please provide me with the following information for me to make aninformed decision on how I deal with the matter;

1. Please provide a full breakdown of the actual loss you say was suffered byyour business or the landowner/landholder.
2. Please confirm who you deem liable for this contravention, the driver or theowner of the vehicle. Please provide evidence of same.
3. I would be grateful if you can forward a copy of the Byelaws referred to onthe signage which clearly state that this penalty is owed to the business orlandowner/landholder and highlight which parts of the Byelaws create thiscontravention and penalty.
4. The car park signage simply refers to “Byelaws” and “Conditions” isconfusing, unclear and insufficient. Please provide evidence where the Byelawsand/or Conditions are listed in the car park in question such that patronsunderstand their requirements/demands.
5. Please confirm who the landowner/landholder is and provide their detailssuch that I can forward my appeal to them (please note SWT have been copied into this letter).
6. Please confirm if PoFA applies in this instance, if so then please provide aPOPLA code within the prescribed date. If not, then please refer to 4 above andprovide evidence of same.
7. Please provide details of your formal complaints procedure. e.g. if youreject this appeal what lawful body can I appeal to.


One final point of note, the signage within the area states that “Section 219of the Transport Act 2000 – Railway Byelaws, Section 14 under which CP Plus haslawful authority to wheel clamp. All vehicles are parked subject to theRailways Byelaws and Conditions and any breach may result in prosecution”.

Upon review of the referenced section of the Transport Act, you will note (seeattached) that these sections of the act have been Repealed In Full and are nolonger relevant.

I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement and comprehensive reply within14 days. If you reject my appeal then please provide a POPLA code within theprescribed date as noted on the reverse of the letter from PCS.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

What do you think?

Coupon-mad

You certainly have got your head around this! And it's one of the most complicated tickets we see!

I would send the whole of that letter to CP Plus and copy in:

- PCS, adding a covering letter telling them to return the file to their client as there's an appeal underway already (prior to their letter) which has now been escalated to a complaint to the landowner and the parking industry Trade Body, and if they don't cease and desist with all contact you will also complain to the CSA.
- the TOC (complaint covering letter)
- Passenger Focus (complaint covering letter)
- the BPA and DVLA (by email as above)

The only wording I would change would be:

''I request, again, that you consider cancelling this ticket'' to make it stronger:

''I require that you cancel this ticket and I have complained to the BPA, the DVLA, and the Train Operator and Passenger Focus about your non-compliant, unjust and confusing 'ticket'.

Puddings

Thank you so much for the reassurance, Coupon-mad, very much appreciated.

All letters ready to post tomorrow! And emails done too.

Regarding contacting Passenger Focus, should I wait for a response from SWT first as that's what their website suggests you should do?

Coupon-mad

Yes, if that's what it says then you could do but if SWT take too long then complain to PF anyway.

Puddings

Hi All,

Right, so I came back from holiday last night to an appeal rejection letter from CP Plus. Letter says:
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Date 20/12/2013

Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

Please note, that we have no record of your letter that you posted to us on 24/10/2013 being received. As we did not receive your appeal or a payment within 28 days, your case was automatically referred to the Debt Recovery Company.

After carefully considering the points made in your appeal, I am unable to offer you a cancellation as I am satisfied the PCN was issued correctly and in compliance with the sites parking terms and conditions.

Whilst I understand that the construction work has reduced the number of available bays, drivers are required to park within the white boxed lines of a designated parking bay when parking on site. The remaining areas of the car park must be kept clear at all times for the site staff and maintenance workers. These areas must be kept clear as failure to do so can also impact on the circulation within the car park, reduce visibility and put other users of the car park at risk. You are not permitted to park outside the allocated parking area, whether the vehicle is causing an obstruction or not.

During busy periods, drivers are advised to find a parking space before purchasing a ticket as parking spaces are not guaranteed. refunds for unused parking tickets can be requested from the station office or by contacting South West Trains Customer Service Centre on 0845 6000 650. There are sufficient signs displayed around the car park detailing the parking conditions and the charges applied if they are not adhered to.

Please note that South West Trains operate under the Railway Byelaws therefore they are not part of the POPLA independent process. A copy of the Bye Laws [sic] is available for inspection at the location where you parked.

All our protocols and procedures are in strict compliance with the regulations set out by the British Parking Association with whom we are duly accredited as Approved Contractors which extends to the charges that we make.

We are not obliged to provide you with the information that you are seeking.

Your PCN has been held at the discounted rate and you have 14 days from the date of this letter to pay the reduced charge of £50.00. After this period the charge will revert to the full amount.

Please call the automated payment line on 0845 070 4277 or go online to http://www.cp-plu.co.uk/pay-appeal-pcn to pay the charge, quoting your PCN number. Payment can also be made by sending a cheque or postal order payment to the P O Box address below, making note of your PCN reference on the back.

Please note that there is a convenience fee of £1.50 when paying online or by phone.

Yours sincerely
Katie Brown
Appeals Department
CP Plus LTD.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Along with this letter is a copy of the car park sign and two dated colour photographs of my car.

If I hadn't gone away I may have been tempted to pay the reduced charge (which I guess is what they want) but I've missed that deadline now so it will be back to £120 now.

I had an email from Steve Clark at BPA on 19/12/2013 acknowledging my email and saying that his Operations Manager, David Metcalf (copied in) will 'handle any investigation' and he also copied in David Dunford at DVLA 'for completeness'. I've not heard anything since.

I have not heard from SWT or the Debt Recovery Company.

I would be exceptionally grateful for help on my next move! Slightly worried..

Thank you very much in advance.

Puds x

Coupon-mad

Complain to PF, citing all grounds, i.e. you have heard nothing from SWT which is unacceptable! Plus, the Parking Operator says they lost the appeal you made in October; the car park had construction work obscuring bays & signs, this is unfair, all you wanted was a POPLA code to appeal, etc. Also the reply calls it a Penalty - how do they explain that since it isn't, it's a private charge and has been referred to the BPA because of this misinformation and unclear terms? The original ticket is not transparent and clear as to whether a person can appeal to POPLA (as they should be able to when it's a private firm) and it is wholly unclear in all comms so far, how CP Plus are able to enforce byelaws. If they can then the paperwork needs to be worded in a much clearer way and the liability spelt out. Ask PF to ask SWT to reply to you directly and to explain, is it 'owner, driver or keeper' who is liable, and under what statute, can PF please find out from the TOC and raise a complaint on your behalf seeing as SWT have not replied to your letter sent a month ago.

Lay it on thick as a very unhappy customer of the TOC. Remind PF that anyone appealing in time to a private firm like CP Plus should 'expect' under the Protection of Freedoms Act to have a right to independent appeal, namely POPLA, but CP Plus have denied it. You want to hear the TOC's own view and to know how annoyed you are about this harassment. Fish for a goodwill gesture of cancellation, do NOT offer to pay anything unless you want to simply make a £10 offer to cover admin/postage to 'resolve the issue'.

Send the letter or email to Passenger Focus, not to CP.

And you could chase up Steve Clark and send him the latest letter saying you are now even more confused because CP Plus persist in calling it a Penalty Charge when it seems very unclear and inconsistently stated so far, as to which statute applies. And you have seen other cases in the public domain where CP Plus have been told to cancel these confusing tickets as the waters are too muddied between byelaws and POFA, making it unfair on you as the recipient, who appealed in good faith in October expecting an independent stage. Ask Steve and David Dunford (copy him in at the DVLA) and ask, why would you have sought out and read a Railway Byelaw when you got a private PCN from CP Plus and had followed the appeals procedure to the letter?

DO NOT IMPLY WHO WAS DRIVING EVEN IF ASKED, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO.

Finally, when I linked pepipoo forum for you, back in October (post #5 above) did you actually read the very useful discussions there about CP Plus and penalty charges? This EXACT situation has been sorted out before. Just search that forum for 'Penalty Plus' or the name of the TOC as a keyword (I don't think you can search for 'CP' as it's too short a word). Please research and read what other people did to get theirs cancelled, and the words they used. I think there's even an email from the DVLA about it all.

Puddings

Thank you very much, Coupon-Mad, much appreciated.

I have contacted PF and BPA/DVLA now and will let you know the response.

I did indeed read all the threads on pepipoo, some quite interesting reading and some interesting debates on the validity of a byelaw ticket, in hindsight there were possibly some better wording I could have used. I haven't found the DVLA email though but I will have another look for that.

Once again, thank you very much for all your help.

Puddings

Right, update...

PF have responded to my email saying that CP Plus have 35 calendar days to respond to my query. I thought they meant the TOC and queried but PF confirmed they meant CP Plus. However, I will also wait 35 days (another 2 to go) to see if SWT respond to my letter before I reply again to PF.

I have just had a reply from BPA stating the following:

Please be advised your original parking ticket stated the ticket was issued under the Railway ByeLaws so the operator has advised from the beginning what law they are using.

The letter you have received in regards to your appeal also stipulates what law the ticket has been issued under.

Unfortunately we do not have the power to get operators to cancel tickets. Please be aware there does not appear to be a breach of our Code of Practice here and unfortunately we cannot investigate the matter any further.
_ _ _ _ _ _

I think I'm going to end up paying the £120...

jkdd77

At this point, given the refusal of CP Plus to issue a POPLA code, I recommend ignoring everything except actual court papers (very unlikely indeed), but, as always, it's up to the OP.