CP+ and Railway Byelaws

Puddings

Hi All,

I've done a few searched here and on Pepipoo but can't find a definitive answer so thought I'd check consensus!

Parked at Fleet Railway Station, not in a marked bay but causing no obstruction and not parking where it says I specifically couldn't i.e. double yellow lines, yellow box things.

There was nowhere to park, the place is being redeveloped so there's a few less spaces than normal and those that are there I don't think are wide enough for most cars so people aren't parking exactly right.

I parked down the centre of two parking aisles (the side where the temporary ticket office is if anyone knows the area) It is a very wide car park and cars could easily get around me. I deliberately avoided the yellow box space in front of the ticket machines but watched someone park there who didn't get a ticket! He was still there when I returned and myself and a car who had also parked in the centre had a ticket.

I've not had a ticket for years but have read these forums (also for years) thinking if it ever does happen on private land I'm happy to ignore but this byelaw one I'm just not sure about!

• Ticket references 'Penalty Notice (PCN)' throughout.
• States the byelaws (Section 219, Section 14)
• It's £80 reduced to £50 if paid within 14 days.
• CP Plus has 'lawful authority to issue this Penalty for the following reason: 05 'not parked in a designated parking space'
• Appeals to a PO Box
• I did have a valid parking ticket for the day (£7.50)
• I have photos of the signs, one of which states 'a Penalty Notice for £80 will be issued if you ... park outside of the marked bays.'

I'm thinking I'm just going to pay it and then walk to the station from now on so they get no further dosh from me!

Would love your thoughts and I do understand I was ultimately disobeying the rules but I needed to park! Be glad when the redevelopment is done and there's more spaces!

TIA x

peter_the_piper

Presume nothing about Byelaw 14? Stations are more complicated, which train operating company.

jkdd77

It's not a "real" byelaw ticket, CP Plus don't bring byelaw prosecutions at all, but do clamp at railway station car parks, and I wouldn't put it past them to clamp over alleged unpaid past debts, even though this would be illegal.

South West Trains brought only one byelaw 14 prosecution in all of 2012, so the chances of being prosecuted by them are incredibly remote (and even then, it ought to be for the prosecution to prove the identity of the driver).

I wouldn't pay, and wouldn't park that car there again either.

Puddings

peter_the_piper wrote: »

Presume nothing about Byelaw 14? Stations are more complicated, which train operating company.

Hi, thank you for your reply, it's South West Trains. The paragraph with the byelaw info in full:

All vehicles are parked subject to the Railway Byelaws and any breach may result in prosecution. Section 219 of the Transport Act 2000-Railway Byelaws, section 14 under which CP Plus has the lawful authority to issue this Penalty for the following reason:

05 Not parked in a designated parking space

and that this was in contravention of the terms and conditions for parking as detailed on the signs on the site.

Puds x

Coupon-mad

Pop over to pepipoo and search their private parking forum for 'Railway' or 'Penalty' because there is a fairly recent long discussion about CP Plus on more than one thread:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=60

As you have noticed, CP Plus are issuing penalty charges, their signs say 'penalty' and also on pepipoo you will find a thread that shows that they have clamped someone at a cost of £330 under the excuse of byelaws.

CP Plus seem to think they have this sussed but they don't, not from the general consensus of opinion on pepipoo. The person clamped is shaping up to sue them because they have not shown 'lawful authority' for the clamping. And the penalty charge discussions (there's more than one pepipoo thread about CP Plus and TOCs in 2013) have generally decided it's best NOT to just pay, but to enter into dialogue with CP Plus, the TOC (and the BPA as a complaint about lack of clarity, muddying the waters between a real and a private PCN) to force them to declare and explain the statute they are alleging the tickets are issued under.

All the time you exchange letters and (hopefully) CP Plus either don't reply or dig a hole for themselves, the more you can complain to the BPA and DVLA about this matter.

And if a TOC was to bring a case to court they have to do so within 6 months - hence why you should 'challenge the legality of the ticket' to them, in a bid to understand the process and to drag it out...

I would wrote to CP Plus and to the TOC, with a pic of the ticket but NOT the signage, trying to make it easier for them to just cancel it. Say summat like:



'Dear Sirs,

This ticket is totally unclear whether any appeal will be processed under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and via POPLA or whether CP Plus is issuing real penalties for a contravention which is specifically covered by byelaws which also enable a third party to charge this amount at this site. Please explain my options, with evidence of CP Plus' lawful authority to issue Penalties, and a copy of the relevant Byelaw, so that I can make an informed decision. I am aware that third party agents normally issue parking charge notices and offer an appeals procedure - but this ticket muddied the waters and confused me, as the registered keeper of this vehicle, so I need to challenge it and ask for much more information.

I am the registered keeper, are you saying that under the byelaws, a third party agent can pursue such a penalty (if this ticket is even compliant as a 'penalty')? I need to understand this: are they specifically enabled under the byelaws to pursue it against a registered keeper - or is ONLY the driver responsible? Or does 'registered keeper liability' under POFA 2012 come into play? Is this 'relevant land' under POFA 2012? Can I appeal to POPLA? Can I see the byelaw 14 contraventions list please, can you please confirm that parking in this spot is a stated byelaw offence? And that signage at the site is clearly displayed currently, despite ongoing works?

I would ask you to consider cancelling this ticket anyway because the driver is a paying customer with a season ticket and they did have a valid parking ticket for the day (£7.50). In addition, this car park is being redeveloped, so there are less spaces than normal in a busy commuter car park. On that occasion the driver avoided any hatched areas and there were no signs where the car was parked, which was in a perfectly sensible and non-obstructive place under the circumstances of the site redevelopment. Surely it is not South West Trains' intention to penalise genuine customers who have paid for parking, when in fact the lack of space and unclear bays (as opposed to a hatched area which the driver avoided) are made worse by building work at the moment? '

Yours,


YOUR NAME


Then email [EMAIL="steve.c@britishparking.co.uk"]steve.c@britishparking.co.uk[/EMAIL]

and

[EMAIL="david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk"]david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL]

and complain about this AOS member issuing penalty charges without showing any evidence of lawful authority under byelaws. Say that for an ordinary registered keeper it is a minefield to udnerstand your position if CP Plus do not answer the simple questions in your appeal and provide the exact byelaw upon which they are relying at this site. Attach a copy of the Penalty ticket and the P&D ticket paid for, and a copy of what you have sent by way of challenge to CP Plus and the TOC.

Then please let us know the response because we haven't really had an outcome yet - CP Plus go very quiet when challenged.

Puddings

Thanks so much Coupon-mad, I'm more than up for a bit of a fight and will send a letter like you have suggested, thanks again for an outline as I was a bit lost as to what to write to be honest.

I will do this tomorrow and let you know how I get on.

jkdd77 - thanks to you too, happy not to park my car there again, it's only a 20 minute walk which would do me good anyway!

Puddings

Hello all,

Well, I received a 'notice to owner' on Friday from CP+ but being administered by Parking Collection Services on their behalf.

I did not receive a response nor an acknowledgement from CP+ re my appeal letter and I didn't obtain proof of postage so I couldn't prove I'd sent it - would this cause a problem?

The notice to owner mentions nothing about the byelaws and says the driver 'breached the stated terms and conditions of perking which were clearly displayed and agreed to by the driver when your vehicle was parked on private land...'

The total amount due is now £120 and I have 28 days from 3/12/13 to make payment in full to avoid further action.

I'm on holiday from the 19th Dec to 13th Jan so a little worried..

What should my next move be? Should I write and enclose a copy of my previous appeal letter? It says on the back of this letter that I can now appeal to PCS (another PO Box No!) it then talks about appealing to POPLA if rejected.

Incidentally most of the train station car park is dug up now - and I'm walking there!

Grateful for all help received.

Puds x

peter_the_piper

You appealed to CP plus but got no reply or popla number, instead they sent you straight to a collection service. I wonder how many rules that breaks.

Puddings

Thanks Peter, I didn't think of that, although I couldn't prove I sent a letter. Proof of posting from now on though.

I think whatever letter I put together next (with the wonderful advice here!) I'll copy to CP+ as well as PCS and anyone else that needs it..

Coupon-mad

This is your Notice to Owner so respond as the owner (keeper) like in the 'NEWBIES read this first!' thread. Just choose a version linked there.

This should be interesting because it's a CP Plus 'Penalty Charge' (alleging bylaws and TOC involvement) and yet they have followed it with a PCS NTO (private 'Parking Charge' bog-standard green & white letter). They can't mix & match the laws & bylaws like this - that's not just 'muddying the waters' it's turning them completely stagnant! It's a real mess so drag it to POPLA.

And I think CP Plus don't mention the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 anywhere on the ticket nor on the PCS NTO. Am I right? So under the terms of the NTO you are not liable then (and bylaws would mean you are not liable too), but to avoid all sorts of unneeded hassle this will be a good one to fling at POPLA. Which you can only do when CP Plus reject your appeal as keeper/owner (do not imply who was driving of course, as you will see in the NEWBIES thread at the top of the forum).

And what happened when you complained about all this misleading drivel to Passenger Focus, as shown in the other sticky I wrote: 'Successful complaints about PPCs'?

Umkomaas

Coupon-mad wrote: »

They can't mix & match the laws & bylaws like this - that's not just 'muddying the waters' it's turning them completely stagnant! It's a real mess so drag it to POPLA.

Green slime and a rancid stench - just about it!