AMEX: long & bitter chargeback dispute - advice please!

straightouttacompton

Hi all. Will try and keep this as brief as possible.

A few years ago, my company was offered some free online services by an American company for the live streaming of an music event (we are quite well known in that field). We accepted the offer. Shortly after, we received a bill for around $6000. The representative who initially made the offer apologised, clearly stating that he should not have offered the services for free, but claimed the situation was 'over his head'. As we were clearly in the right, we declined to make any sort of payment and invited the US firm to take us to court if they genuinely believed they had a case - where we would have been happy to meet them.

Around a year later, my personal American Express card was debited by the US company for the full amount. The US company weren't in possession of a valid card number, but had a previous Amex card number for some services I'd used on their website a few years in the past (totally unrelated), and managed to pass it off with Amex as a 'recurring subscription'.

I initiated Amex's disputes procedure, which was lengthy, with numerous caned replies and very tricky to get through to a real person, but eventually, the US company admitted to Amex that the service they provided was far more expensive than it should have been, and a full charge back was processed.

This should have been the end of the issue, but within a month of the chargeback being processed, the US company charged my card again, for an almost identical amount. I've had no dealings with them since the original dispute. I couldn't believe that after having a chargeback returned, the company could basically just re-charge my account, but Amex were unhelpful - basically telling me I'd have to open a new disputes case and start the process all over again.

At this point, my faith in Amex was pretty much exhausted, so I cleared my bill, other than the new charge, and instructed them to close my account, saying they would not be getting a penny more, and I would welcome a court appearance to resolve the issue. I provided them with my lawyer's details for further communication and told them until I received some sort of court summons I considered the matter closed.

They have totally ignored this letter, and continue to send me 'canned' replies, showing a statement with the 'disputed' amount, alongside £12 of interest which they are asking me to pay. My account does now show as closed however. I am unsure how to proceed.

Questions:

- Should I continue the back and forth with Amex, should I escalate things by referring to the financial ombudsman or similar, or should I just sit back and wait for legal proceedings?

- If Amex do end up taking me to court, is that the point for me to turn up with documentation and fight my case? I don't want to seem like I've tried to hide from this and would prefer to take pre-emptive action.

- Should I pay Amex to protect my credit file, and then take them to court to get the money back? I am concerned that this is damaging my credit file.

I can afford to pay the money, and in most situations would just pay up on the basis that life's too short, and the time I am spending fighting this is probably costing me more than the potential savings. But I'm so enraged at the way Amex have acted I want to see this through, and win.

Any advice appreciated.

InsideInsurance

Getting a chargeback for one transaction doesnt mean that all future transactions should also be declined. If they are doing it as a subscription then it should have been done under a Continuous Payment Authority and so you should have ensured you had cancelled that along with doing the chargeback to get the funds.

The courts dont look favourably on those who dont attempt to resolve matters before it gets to court. Whilst it is unlikely it is possible for you to win a court case but you have to pay the other parties legal costs because the courts feel that you didnt adequately attempt to resolve the matter before the courts and that it could have been resolved. Before others point out the rarity of this, I am saying it is rare but ultimately it is a risk you take by ignoring them and calling their bluff.


Write a letter of complaint, AmEx's complaint resolution is normally very good, and articulate exactly what you want as a resolution in terms of (1) the chargeback completed (2) the CPA cancelled (3) the interest on the disputed charge reimbursed (4) the account closed and agreement cancelled.

Once you get their formal response to the complaint or 8 weeks later if no response is forthcoming then you can raise it to the FOS

globetraveller

Do you not have anything in writing from the company stating the services were free?

grumbler

InsideInsurance wrote: »

...If they are doing it as a subscription then it should have been done under a Continuous Payment Authority and so you should have ensured you had cancelled that along with doing the chargeback to get the funds.
...

Write a letter of complaint, ..., and articulate exactly what you want as a resolution in terms of .... (2) the CPA cancelled

I think it's perfectly clear that there was no any CPA in place and it was fabricated by the company. Doing what you suggest would mean admitting that there was CPA.

It was a pure unauthorised transaction - both the first and the second time - and this has to be the main point of the complaint.

InsideInsurance

grumbler wrote: »

I think it's perfectly clear that there was no any CPA in place and it was fabricated by the company. Doing what you suggest would mean admitting that there was CPA.

It was a pure unauthorised transaction - both the first and the second time - and this has to be the main point of the complaint.

No it wouldnt mean that its admitting there is a CPA.

A CPA must go through a different merchant ID that is only usable for reoccurring transactions, to "cancel" a CPA via your bank that merchant ID is blocked, so you would advise that the first reoccurring payment wasnt authorised and you want all future reoccurring payments also stopped by cancelling the alleged CPA/ blocking their reoccurring merchant ID from your account.

ValHaller

I think that the CPA question is a red herring. The real issue is unauthorised debits. OP has won with Amex on this once and is very little in the wrong is refusing to pay or engage in further correspondence - as long as the matter is about the company attempting to make the same charges. Hopefully, OP has made the point in writing that this is the same charges being reapplied to his personal account when the supplier only had a dispute with OP's company.

If OP has not made the point, it needs reiterating in a form which can be shown to a court.

straightouttacompton

globetraveller wrote: »

Do you not have anything in writing from the company stating the services were free?

Yes, both the initial offer of free services and subsequent emails apologising for them "not being free" which have been sent to Amex numerous times.

straightouttacompton

ValHaller wrote: »

I think that the CPA question is a red herring. The real issue is unauthorised debits. OP has won with Amex on this once and is very little in the wrong is refusing to pay or engage in further correspondence - as long as the matter is about the company attempting to make the same charges. Hopefully, OP has made the point in writing that this is the same charges being reapplied to his personal account when the supplier only had a dispute with OP's company.

If OP has not made the point, it needs reiterating in a form which can be shown to a court.

Thank you, this is helpful.

I have already done this, but maybe one final letter stating this should be my last action.

The charges are absolutely the same, but Amex seem to be sending stock answers "You need to cancel your subscription with the vender".

No subscription ever existed to cancel. The supplier have not shown any proof that there was one, yet still seem to be able to charge my account with impunity.

ValHaller

straightouttacompton wrote: »

Yes, both the initial offer of free services and subsequent emails apologising for them "not being free" which have been sent to Amex numerous times.

I am thinking these are not relevant to your dispute and the fact that you have this correspondence is clouding the brains of the droids into thinking that you are involved enough to be fair game to take these charges.

You really need to be clear about wearing the right hat when you deal with this stuff and not mix up personal and business, because the essence of your position is that you personally have no dealings with the outfit taking the money.

straightouttacompton

ValHaller wrote: »

I am thinking these are not relevant to your dispute and the fact that you have this correspondence is clouding the brains of the droids into thinking that you are involved enough to be fair game to take these charges.

You really need to be clear about wearing the right hat when you deal with this stuff and not mix up personal and business, because the essence of your position is that you personally have no dealings with the outfit taking the money.

You are probably right. But how should I make this point without such documentation, in a short and concise way that they would understand?

The fact is we DID once work with the company, so the company has obviously had stuff showing AMEX that we once worked with them, which, as you say, makes the droids think I was fair game enough to take the charges.

ValHaller

You are making the wrong point.

You are arguing that the charges are wrong because they are not according to contract and it should have been free. That is with your company hat on.

But it is your private hat you should be wearing and arguing you personally have never had any contract with this outfit which authorises them to charge you nor have they supplied you with anything - they are abusing your personal details given for a previous, entirely separate and complete deal.

I think too you might do well to face letting a court sort this out and focus on making the point concisely in a way which shows that you have already told them so a court would comprehend that you have told them what you need to rather than trying to get them to leave you alone.

BTW make sure this is not going on your credit record.