Advice on POPLA appeal - ECP

Chimper

I received a parking charge notice from Euro Car Parks. After appealing to them they have sent further information, including a POPLA code.

The car park in question is free to use, however it is close to a stadium. Their sign says "No stadium parking", and gives a time limit of 90mins on match days. After having a meal in a restaurant, and doing some shopping, I parked longer than 90mins - at the time I had no idea if there were any matches being played at the stadium. If it helps I still have a receipt from one of the shops.

ECP say they have two "A boards", one placed at the entrance on match days, the other on a non-match day. The non-match day sign states "Free parking for retail customers all day", and is the only sign I've even seen there, although I cannot recollect if I did on that day. From photos supplied by ECP, the sign is not placed in the same position each day. Do they need to prove the match day sign was there?

They refuse to show they have a contract with the land-owner, stating it is confidential. They say their charges have been approved by the land-owner. The land-owner is unknown.

I've read that they can only charge for actual losses incurred. As it's a free car park they haven't actually made any losses. ECP say their losses are in managing the car park and dealing with any breaches. They have given a breakdown of these and they include wages, overheads, professional advice, stationery, depreciation etc etc. Surely these are their operating costs and not caused by anyone overstaying in a free car park.

On the above point, they do state that parking charges have been tested in the courts, and supply details of court cases, none of which involve ECP.

I'm hoping someone can give me some pointers before I make my appeal.

Thanks

Folkiedave

They talk round spherical objects as far as their expenses and court cases are concerned. They told you about the ones they have lost? And you are correct they are indeed operating costs. They would be the same if they "ticketed" no-one.

I wouldn't bother about the match day stuff personally. You have obviously been reading around the forums - stick to the tried and tested reasons in what is known now as a "hard appeal". No contract - and no genuine loss.

Plenty of examples in the stickies. Bring it back here for approval if you like!

martmonk

Chimper wrote: »

After having a meal in a restaurant, and doing some shopping

do you have receipts or bank/card statements to back this up?
if so I'd complain in the strongest possible terms (in person if possible) to the retailers who can have this cancelled for you.

Umkomaas

The one sure thing about the contract is they are going to have to produce it (and for your perusal) to POPLA if they are going to be able to win their case. You will need to put them to strict proof on this and as an additional requirement to show that the contract clearly indicates they have the right to restrict parking on match days.

You need to do some reading on POPLA appeals and what wins, so here are 3 links that should provide you with plenty of ideas on how to frame an appeal and what to put in it. In the 2 forum links, read the most recent posts (say past couple of months).

http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/popla/

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4488337

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=SF&s=&f=17

There's only one case of ECP doing court in the past 12 months so whilst an indication that over the last year they have been pretty 'tame' it's not a guarantee for the future.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/168158/response/413887/attach/3/AFINAL%20REPLY%20TO%20LEWIS%2084035.doc

Coupon-mad

Yep just read several other POPLA appeals on this forum, by skim-reading threads and looking at the links Umkomaas has provided - and post your draft here first. We want to help you win this POPLA appeal like everyone here does (100% success in the last 7 months of advice given).

Chimper

Thanks for the replies so far.

I did read up on a few things before contacting ECP, but will now have a good read through those links that have been posted over the w/end to try and put together the POPLA appeal.

Will try to get a draft up here within the week for you to look at

Chimper

martmonk wrote: »

do you have receipts or bank/card statements to back this up?
if so I'd complain in the strongest possible terms (in person if possible) to the retailers who can have this cancelled for you.

Unfortunately/fortunately I can only find one receipt.

Most of the retailers have signs on their doors saying they can't deal with parking complaints, so guess this is quite common.

Guys_Dad

Don't worry. Take them to POPLA.

Just done a draft appeal for BillyBumble here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4780336 see page 2

Any good as a starter, obviously changing the first point?

Chimper

Using Guys Dad's draft I've modified it to:-

Dear POPLA,

I am the registered keeper of vehicle reg xxx xxxx and I contend that I am not liable for the parking charge. I wish to appeal against the PCN notice on the following grounds.

1) The charge is a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.
The charge demanded far exceeds the cost to the landowner who would have received £0.00 from any vehicles parked as the car park is free to use. If it exceeds any loss, it becomes a penalty.

In the appeal, ECP has not justified their charge as an appropriate, genuine pre-estimate of loss.
For this charge to be justified a full breakdown of the losses that ECP has suffered as a result of the car being parked at the car park is required and should add up to the amount demanded. Normal expenditure the company incurs to carry on their business (e.g. provision of parking, parking enforcement or signage erection) should not be included in the breakdown, as these operational costs are the normal costs of running a business and would have been suffered irrespective of the car being parked at that car park or not. I therefore put ECP to strict proof to provide a breakdown to POPLA of the actual losses that they claim to have suffered as a result of this alleged parking contravention

2) Proprietary Interest
As the registered keeper, I do not believe that ECP has demonstrated a proprietary interest in the land, because they have no legal possession which would give them any right to offer parking spaces, let alone allege a contract with third party customers of the lawful owner/occupiers.

In addition, ECP's lack of title in this land means they have no legal standing to allege trespass or loss, if that is the basis of their charge

3) Contract with Landowner
The registered keeper believes there is no contract with the landowner/occupier that entitles them to levy these charges and to pursue them in the courts in their own name as creditor. Therefore this Operator has no authority to issue BPA Code of Practice compliant parking charge notices (PCNs). Any breach of the BPA Code of Practice means that 'registered keeper liability' has not been established, since full compliance is a pre-requisite of POFA 2012.''

I put ECP to strict proof that they have such a contract and that they are not in breach of section 7.1 of the BPA code

4) Lack of BPA compliant signage
By ECP's own admittance, they use alternative, and moveable, 'A' boards at the entrance to the car park. ECP provide no proof as to which 'A' board signs were in use on the day in question, if any were, or where they were placed.

What do you think?

jeanraffio

Here's two very good POPLA appeal letters that have been written in the past few days, you may wish to cross check yours against theirs. Yours looks slightly light in detail IMO, but there's finer minds than mine who can help you there:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4799843
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4800038

Coupon-mad

I like them all...but which is best? FIGHT!!! :rotfl:

Seriously, Chimper that's a nice POPLA appeal, if you want to add anything else from the other examples, feel free, but it looks as though you have nailed the imoprtant points of appeal for POPLA to find in your favour by Christmas!