seller refusing to refund P&P

wealdroam

hollydays wrote: »

As regards distance selling regulations, if companies specify on their website that they do not pay return postage that is legally acceptable.

I am sorry, but you are mistaken.

Whether or not a company says on their website that they do not pay return postage is not important.

If the company want the consumer to pay the return postage when they cancel an order then they must say so by durable means.

Or as the OFT say on page 27 of their guide to the DSRs:

Who pays for returning the goods if the consumer cancels an order?
3.55 If you want the consumer to return the goods and to pay for that return, you must make it clear in the contract and as part of the required written information – see paragraph 3.10. If the consumer then fails to return the goods, or sends them at your expense, you can charge them the direct cost to you of the return, even if you have already refunded the consumer’s money

hollydays

Sorry, durable means or whatever, I just want it understood it's not always returnable to the buyer

frugal_mike

wealdroam wrote: »

I am sorry, but you are mistaken.

Whether or not a company says on their website that they do not pay return postage is not important.

If the company want the consumer to pay the return postage when they cancel an order then they must say so by durable means.

Or as the OFT say on page 27 of their guide to the DSRs:

I've read the distance selling regulations and I can't see which regulation supports what the OFT are saying here. Regulation 8 states what information the seller must supply in durable means. Regulation 11 lists the penalty for not providing it (i.e the right to cancel is extended up to 3 months and 7 working days).

Regulation 14 does not say that violating regulation 8 removes their right to charge for return postage though. It just days that the contract must state the consumer has to return cancelled goods.

I assume they know more than me, but I still don't see how they interpreted it that way.

wealdroam

frugal_mike wrote: »

I've read the distance selling regulations and I can't see which regulation supports what the OFT are saying here. Regulation 8 states what information the seller must supply in durable means. Regulation 11 lists the penalty for not providing it (i.e the right to cancel is extended up to 3 months and 7 working days).

Regulation 14 does not say that violating regulation 8 removes their right to charge for return postage though. It just days that the contract must state the consumer has to return cancelled goods.

I assume they know more than me, but I still don't see how they interpreted it that way.

I think Regulation 8 covers it.

In particular, paragraph (2)(b):

(2) The information required to be provided by paragraph (1) is—
(b)information about the conditions and procedures for exercising the right to cancel under regulation 10, including—
(i)where a term of the contract requires (or the supplier intends that it will require) that the consumer shall return the goods to the supplier in the event of cancellation, notification of that requirement; and
(ii)information as to whether the consumer or the supplier would be responsible under these Regulations for the cost of returning any goods to the supplier, or the cost of his recovering them, if the consumer cancels the contract under regulation 10;

frugal_mike

wealdroam wrote: »

I think Regulation 8 covers it.

In particular, paragraph (2)(b):

Yes regulation 8 definitely says they have to provide that information, but it doesn't say the terms in the contract about the buyer paying return postage are unenforceable if it fails to provide this information.

Regulation 11 lists has a penalty for not complying with regulation 11; the time allowed for cancellation is increased.

However section 14 (that deals with refunds and return postage) does not say that failing to comply with regulation 8 means the seller has to pay. It does list other situations that mean the seller has to pay though, so I would have expected it to say it there in explicit terms.

pimiento

harrys_dad wrote: »

Thanks for finding that, I am in error. Having said that, why bury it at the bottom of that page and not put it clearly on the "contact us" page?

It's also in small letters at the top of the home page, but I'm not convinced it was there yesterday. I did email them last night and told them I had asked for advice here, so perhaps they read your comment..

I have now received a VERY long and officious email from them saying that they will refund the placemats plus PART of the initial postage costs.
I ordered matching tea towels, which I clearly now don't want (and are made of cheap thin cotton I doubt would dry a teaspoon), and they are saying they will deduct the postage attributable to these! - thought I made it clear to them I am cancelling the WHOLE order and under DSR the WHOLE postage must be refunded.

On the plus side they are also agreeing to refund return postage for the placemats (and tell me if I want to return the tea towels I must do so in a different parcel!)

There is a lot of bold highlighting in the instructions for what I must and must not do.

So once again thank you all very much - I was quite well aware of the SoGA before, but not DSR, which seems to have achieved the very thing it is designed for in this case.

George_Michael

harrys_dad wrote: »

That website has no geographic address and no geographic telephone number (at least that I can find), so is illegal. I suggest you report them to Trading Standards.

Companies selling via the internet are required to show a trading address but there is no legal requirement for a telephone number to be given.

harrys_dad

George_Michael wrote: »

Companies selling via the internet are required to show a trading address but there is no legal requirement for a telephone number to be given.

From OFT guidelines

"contact details where customers can request information or make
a complaint – this must include a telephone number and one or
more of; a postal address, fax number or email address and (if
different to your postal address) your official address if applicable"

but this part apparently only applies to Provision of Services!

Having said that, without a clearly and openly visibly address and geographic telephone number I would never deal with a website for any purchase.

hollydays

Does it look like its closing down?
I see they explain that their goods are" unfinished" , sounds like a disclaimer for poor quality.

hollydays

Does it look like its closing down?
Under " disclaimers"
I see they explain that their goods are" worn and unfinished for a primitive look", " made for the American market, whatever that means- sounds like a disclaimer for poor quality.