Garden not registered?

Land_Registry

The SIM should be completed by return of post normally

I note you have not replied to the other posting but hopefully once oyu know for sure whether the land is registered that will help decide how best to proceed.

The other contributors on here will be able to help further as well if necessary

Richard_Webster

Doing a SIM is the answer - if you have a plan for a nearby title you simply photocopy it and stick a red line around the area you want to search against. The address list only deals with identifiable addresses rather than description like "land adjoining [Name of] Road" which could apply in this case

Nevertheless I would still ask the neighbour when he bought it and and if it is in a separate title. He may not know the latter point - but still worth asking - you might get a "Oh, yes, I think the solicitor did say something about two titles when we bought..."

More worrying would be if has forgotten that someone else gave him temporary permission to use it - which would stop adverse possession arising. If he has adversely possessed then you would want him to obtain at least a possessory title and to pay for indemnity insurance in case a "real" owner appeared claiming it.

whatamigonnado

Richard_Webster wrote: »

Doing a SIM is the answer - if you have a plan for a nearby title you simply photocopy it and stick a red line around the area you want to search against. The address list only deals with identifiable addresses rather than description like "land adjoining [Name of] Road" which could apply in this case

Nevertheless I would still ask the neighbour when he bought it and and if it is in a separate title. He may not know the latter point - but still worth asking - you might get a "Oh, yes, I think the solicitor did say something about two titles when we bought..."

More worrying would be if has forgotten that someone else gave him temporary permission to use it - which would stop adverse possession arising. If he has adversely possessed then you would want him to obtain at least a possessory title and to pay for indemnity insurance in case a "real" owner appeared claiming it.

Thank you for the reply Richard.

I have now sent off the SIM form with a copy plan indicating the section I am interested in.

The house is currently rented and has been for quite a few years now. I know the current owner bought it around 13 years ago and usually tenants change every couple of years or so.

We have lived here for almost 24 years and when we first bought the house there was no fence up dividing my garden from the one in question, but when I mentioned this to the vendor she told me the garden belonged to next door and that the fence had just fallen down. Would be absolutely wonderful if it turned out to be ours - would this be possible even if it isn't shown on the title plan, for instance if it had been purchased at some point down the line? Just clutching at straws really!

What would our position be if it turns out that there isn't a separate title confirming it belongs to the other house? Who else could it belong to if not any of the other houses surrounding it?

If it is unregistered, could the other house now claim it as they have had use of it, or would it be up for grabs? Just wondering because we have already approached the Landlord with a view to possibly buying it, and it was only out of interest that I looked at the Land Registry, not for one minute thinking there would be a problem.

If he could (and did) claim adverse possession, how long would this take?

My only other thought was that it might be the Council who own it, but it is right in the middle of all our gardens, so surely that wouldn't be likely.

If you wouldn't mind having a look, I could email you the title plans I have downloaded in case it makes things any clearer.

Once again, thanks for your reply.

W.

Richard_Webster

Wait and see what the SIM search shows. If it is registered you can get a copy of the registry entries for that title and see who owns it.

If not registered there are all sorts of possibilities. Can't be yours unless it turns out to be registered in your name - in which case take the fences down very quickly - as neighbours could have obtained rights to it over 24 years! Really this is extremely unlikely.

Nothing much has happened, other than meeting with the Landlords agent to measure exactly how much we are looking at (22ft x 27ft), this was yesterday.

I assume the reference to "Landlord" is a reference to the person who you think owns the next door property. So you need to pursue with him why he thinks he owns it.

whatamigonnado

Richard_Webster wrote: »

Wait and see what the SIM search shows. If it is registered you can get a copy of the registry entries for that title and see who owns it.

If not registered there are all sorts of possibilities. Can't be yours unless it turns out to be registered in your name - in which case take the fences down very quickly - as neighbours could have obtained rights to it over 24 years! Really this is extremely unlikely.



I assume the reference to "Landlord" is a reference to the person who you think owns the next door property. So you need to pursue with him why he thinks he owns it.

Hello again Richard

I have received a response to my SIM enquiry this morning from the Land Registry as follows:

"No registered estate, caution against first registration, or application for first registration or application for a caution against first registration is shown on the index map in relation to the Property. We therefore hold no records in respect of the Property".

I take it this means the land has no owner.

The house the bit of garden is attached to is currently registered and was bought by a Company in 2008. It was previously sold in 2000 so none of the recent owners have owned it for a long period. However, we have lived here for almost 24 years and for as long as that we believed the garden to belong to their property.

Is there anything we can do now?

Thanks in advance for your help and replies.

Land_Registry

whatamigonnado - I am sure Richard's post will cover things for you but one thing to clarify is that unregistered land is simply land which has not been registered. It will still be owned but the record of that ownership is not currently recorded.

whatamigonnado

Land_Registry_representative wrote: »

whatamigonnado - I am sure Richard's post will cover things for you but one thing to clarify is that unregistered land is simply land which has not been registered. It will still be owned but the record of that ownership is not currently recorded.

Now I am completely confused! How is it possible to find out?

It is the rear end of a garden that backs on to ours, the Title Plan of the actual address doesn't show that the land belongs to them. We had approached the Landlord of the house with a view to purchasing this bit of garden, but now presume that it isn't his to sell - so is this not the case?

If land is not registered, how can the owner be located?

Thank you

Richard_Webster

If land is not registered, how can the owner be located?

With difficulty!

However you do not want to locate the owner. You want the neighbour to provide you with a possessory title based on his long use of it enclosed within his garden. He will need to get his solicitors to obtain this. He will also have to provide an indemnity policy to cover you in case the "real" owner turns up and tries to upset the title. This is very are - because adverse possession for 12 years is usually sufficient.

The possession has to be open (not secretive), not by the use of force (unlikely these days) and not with anyone else's permission. The last one is occasionally a problem. If the neighbouring owner signs a licence agreement with some third party every five years that allows continued use of the land with the permission of the third party, then that isn't "adverse" possession.

Also the adverse possessor only gets the title that the person entitled to possession has. As it is normally impossible to find the real owner it is generally assumed that this is a freehold.

Real life example here. Wartime Britain - need to grow food. X leases stretch of land to Council for allotments at fairly nominal rent. X's title (like most in those days) is unregistered. Council then gives allotment tenancies of bits of this land. Years later in the 1950s parts of this land overgrown and unused. Y, who has house nearby extends his garden to include part of this
area and eventually applies for a possessory title. Neither he nor the Land Registry are aware of the history so having proved his 12 years possession he gets a title. Time goes on and X is thinking of developing part of the land and notices that Y has this possessory title. X serves notice on Council to end the allotment tenancy in so far as related to that land. Council acknowledges notice and admit it is no longer entitled to possession. X asks Land Registry to remove Y's title, which it does.

In this case the Council only had a tenancy form yer to year so that is all Y could get and when tenancy determined so were any rights Y had gained by adverse possession. In practice, of course this kind of scenario is very rare, but is the reason why because there are such technical defences, the LR will only give a possessory title. You have to wait another 12 years to convert it to an unchangeable "absolute" title.

whatamigonnado

Thank you once again Richard. Do you know how long the whole process is likely to take?

Does it make any difference that the house has changed ownership at least twice over the past 12 years? It was sold in 2000 and 2008.

So, as a first port of call, should I be first asking the Landlord to confirm whether or not he owns the land (they may not be aware that they don't, if in fact they don't) and what proof he has?

If he doesn't own it and can't be bothered to apply for possession, is there anything I can do?

Thank you.

Land_Registry

whatamigonnado wrote: »

Thank you once again Richard. Do you know how long the whole process is likely to take?

Does it make any difference that the house has changed ownership at least twice over the past 12 years? It was sold in 2000 and 2008.

So, as a first port of call, should I be first asking the Landlord to confirm whether or not he owns the land (they may not be aware that they don't, if in fact they don't) and what proof he has?

If he doesn't own it and can't be bothered to apply for possession, is there anything I can do?

Thank you.

The period of possession has to be continuois so if over 12 years you have 3 owners then ideally each has to provide evidence to support the claim - this can pose difficulties where none were aware that the land was not registered to them as if they had known then on each sale they may have provided evidence to hand on

As the neighbour is trying to sell it then the next step is probably to let them know that it is unregistered and see what happens next. There is always the possibility that they do have evidence to support any claim of ownership but there is always a small possibility that an error was made when their property was registered - sadly it can happen although fortunately it is rare

If the neighbour decides he can't be bothered then there is always the possibility of fencing the land off and following the same route as posted by Richard

Our Practice Guide 5 provides guidance around the process of claiming adverse possession but I would always recommend seeking legal advice naturally