Rejoice! The good cheer spreads across the country ...

Loughton_Monkey

boltneck123 wrote: »

I do not believe in taking wealth from someone who has worked hard to earn it, or indeed inherited it. I for one will not turn down anything I inherit in the future, and will look to maximise my opportunities with new said wealth.

Well done. But we do take money from hard workers. It's called taxation, a good proportion of which either goes to the poor, or gives equal benefits to all.

boltneck123 wrote: »

.....I find that humans, despite being extremely advanced compared to wild animals, are synonymous with them, i.e. in our quest for survival. Those who are strong will survive, in human society those who are smart will prevail.

True. Human nature exists, and to some extent, trying to change it too much or too fast cannot work.

boltneck123 wrote: »

.... But we must all have an underlying sense of responsibility to ensure that we are all in some form secure and capable of surviving. (I concede here that in the UK & USA, and indeed in other western countries, this seems to be achieved, all be it not perfect).

The nub of the debate, perhaps. It's a question of degree. So many people believe (as I do) that welfare is (a) grossly 'over the top' in its scale and % of our economy, and (b) very badly targetted. To use the old analogy, this country does give everyone a rod and teaches them how to fish. Some latch on and can feed themselves without help. I find it grossly offensive to these people when they see more fish and better quality fish given to those who simply wouldn't listen, or are too idle to pick up the rod.

boltneck123 wrote: »

....Globally, inequality can be seen more boldly, there are individuals without sanitation, food or clean water, what we in the west regard as basic human rights.

A different debate. But give any of these people the same housing, the same spending power, and the same education/opportunities as exist here, do you think any of them would complain, whinge, or beef about a person down the road working and earning more?

boltneck123 wrote: »

The solution to solving these problems I think lies in a point you made, that we should look for legitimate reasons as to why this gap exists. Once this is understood we can move towards solving them as a society and globally as a race.

If indeed these are 'problems'. Globally they may be, but in UK the 'problem' seems to be more of how we maintain basic safety net standards, but wean people off the selfish short-term behaviour that says "If I work, I will only be 2p better off. So I won't."

mystic_trev

chucknorris wrote: »

We've all got to start somewhere, my first job was a petrol pump attendant.

I believe in a previous 'incarnation' the OP told us he worked for a Nissan dealership.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=18015125&postcount=25

boltneck123

Loughton Monkey, my response to your points.

- Yes aware about taxation, when I say those who worked hard for it, I mean I do not agree with taking over half their wealth (through taxation or by force), hard work should always pay. I was raised to believe that. Hence not sleeping since Friday.


- Yes I agree, human nature cannot be changed drastically and/or too quickly (Though I live for that direction, although sadly I may never see fundamental change in my life time).


- In regards to the UK welfare state, I do actually think it is to large. Those whom are disabled, have learning disabilities, those that are in a situation that means they will never be able to work, I whole hardheartedly believe they should be looked after to a good decent standard. (This is my line of work and went into it because of this belief). When it comes to everybody else, I actually think that they should make the most of a free education and the generous loans for a university education, I took full advantage and I will never be ashamed of any success gained because of it.

Those who are able, should. But I ultimately think it all comes down to good education, some children through no fault of their own are stuck in a bad environment with uneducated, drug addict, alcoholic etc etc parents - which can have lasting effects on the child's attitudes, beliefs etc etc. Maybe there should be something done (if it is already, then more), to interject and break this cycle of delinquency, rather than just leave them to it and they complain about successful people and successful people complain about them. (I am rambling now, as I said rather tired).

- People in the third world, would indeed NOT complain, I already think that. I was just making the point to show that there is a huge wealth gap on a global scale, some suffer a lot more than others and I think something should be done about it, something is going wrong here. But...yes as you say, another debate in itself.

- Your point about people not wanting to work, because they will only get 2p, I agree with. It may not be 2p, but the number used here is arbitrary, I have often met people that use the argument "I will earn £10 more or £10 less, so what is the point in working" - This enrages me! I have a very strong work ethic and would much rather work for any wage than go to the dole office every 2 weeks. This is simply because of my upbringing and I refer to its importance by going back to my point above about children in bad environments.



On reflection, I think there is a cultural problem with British society, the ethics of working hard and making your life your self seem to have all but vanished. Taking a best guess, I would say around 30% of people I went to school with are on some form of benefit and do nothing. I can see that from the facebook feeds. I am not against cuts, but I am against leaving those who need help the most with nothing or not enough- be it physical help, mental help, social help or just general support to help them find their way. It sickens me when I hear people, when out and about, discussing the topic - saying take everything away 'f-um'. (I am not accusing you are anyone else on this board of taking that point of view, if you do then that is yours and your entitled to do so). When it comes to this debate it is difficult to avoid people putting me in one camp or another when really I not subscribe to either side (before you say it not a liberal!). I think truth be told, I will most probably become a political atheist as I get older or just start my own party lol.

Excuse rambling and if not very coherent, very tired, no sleep since Friday night, hard at work .

Loughton_Monkey

boltneck123 wrote: »

Loughton Monkey, my response to your points.
........

Excuse rambling and if not very coherent, very tired, no sleep since Friday night, hard at work .

Actually a large measure of agreement.

A large gin & tonic always helps sleep. I recommend it.

boltneck123

Tonight, I wish, but I cannot drink on the job. However, I will most likely employ that advice come Monday evening indeed .

Loughton_Monkey

chucknorris wrote: »

What do you call exploitation? We pay both our cleaner and gardener £10 per hour, I think that is reasonable, they seem happy enough with it.

Phew!

Abroad for 6 years 2000-2005, I had to pay £26 an hour for the gardener plus 'a lad'. I suspect £30 by now.....

Linda_D_2

Loughton_Monkey wrote: »

Actually a large measure of agreement.

A large gin & tonic always helps sleep. I recommend it.

You are aware that a gin and tonic is an old woman's drink?

Loughton_Monkey

Linda_D wrote: »

You are aware that a gin and tonic is an old woman's drink?

That's neat gin! Mother's Ruin. Do you enjoy it?;)

Linda_D_2

No i don't myself. I didn't know you were a woman

Loughton_Monkey

Linda_D wrote: »

No i don't myself. I didn't know you were a woman

I wasn't before I started drinking.