Rejoice! The good cheer spreads across the country ...

chucknorris

MrRee wrote: »

The rich - to enjoy the good life - MUST spend!

And that spend helps everyone else - from my Swimming Pool cleaner to the BoatHouse repair man - from the housemaid to the chauffer.

Don't forget about the guy that cleans up the peacock crap, your lawns wouldn't look the same without him!

boltneck123

That is a true point - in order to enjoy a high life the rich must spend their dosh.

What kind of living standard does the swimming pool cleaner have though? I should imagine he/she is on minimum wage, without any prospect of it getting any higher since it is an employers market.

chucknorris

boltneck123 wrote: »

That is a true point - in order to enjoy a high life the rich must spend their dosh.

What kind of living standard does the swimming pool cleaner have though? I should imagine he/she is on minimum wage, without any prospect of it getting any higher since it is an employers market.

We've all got to start somewhere, my first job was a petrol pump attendant.

MrRee_2

My swimming pool cleaner owns his own company and drives a BMW Z4. Some of his wealth comes from my wealth.

It filters down, no matter what anyone with their head stuck in the sand wants to think.

Anyone can better themselves, and if they can't the state looks after them through my 50% tax rate ..... again the wealth filters and helps them too.

boltneck123

Yes of course we all have to start somewhere. Some never make it though.

I am not against hard work and advancement up the 'ladder'. But we shouldn't exploit people for our own gains.

chucknorris

boltneck123 wrote: »

Yes of course we all have to start somewhere. Some never make it though.

I am not against hard work and advancement up the 'ladder'. But we shouldn't exploit people for our own gains.

What do you call exploitation? We pay both our cleaner and gardener £10 per hour, I think that is reasonable, they seem happy enough with it.

boltneck123

Your swimming pool cleaner is one example, I argue the exception to the rule here.

I have not said it doesn't trickle down, I argue that is slowing down.

If you cannot at least accept the simple truth that there is large wealth inequality, then it is you that have your head buried in the sand.

Kudos for working hard and having a house with a swimming pool.

boltneck123

I did not talk about your swimming pool cleaner.

I use the term 'exploit' in a global sense. Such as manufactures using cheap Eastern labor to maximize profit margins. But I am sure you will have yet another justification for why manufacturers doing that is acceptable. For you do not like your preconceptions challenged.

Reply if you like, there is no debate here, time to move on I think.

Loughton_Monkey

boltneck123 wrote: »

MrRee, if the rich filter their wealth down to the masses, then it has slowed down significantly over the past few decades.

Grizzly1911's information shows there to be a rise in wealth inequality, 'copy n paste' or not - the information is there, multiple sources are available on the internet.

At the moment the wealthy's proverbial 'filter' looks more like a vacuum.

I accept that individuals should take more responsibility for their wealth, I my self was reckless in the past and I am in the process of paying off debt. I will never again be so stupid, I have learned a valuable lesson. But come on, some people just have s**t luck, regardless of their actions or how much they try to do things right. I have no objection to people wanting to earn a lot of wealth and enjoy a good life - I would happily work towards a few million my self. But seriously, a single human does not need billions, Bill Gates is a good example, nice of him to try and do something with it.

Information given was US, not UK. But let's accept UK might show a similar pattern. Graph shows that all percentile groups have increased real wealth over the years. By the eye, there is a small degree of higher growth in wealth for the higher earners.

It is well understood and believed that if you created an ordinary society of, say, 10,000 people, each with exactly the same wealth to start with, then in a few years, some would be quite rich, and others would be quite poor. If you don't accept this, or if you are in the camp that says all the 'excess' should be taken off the rich and levelled out again, then I don't believe you can have a sensible debate.

If, however, you accept the general principle, then I think we should look for legitimate reasons why the 'gap' is increasing. Back in the 50's/60's we were still in an age where breaking out of your 'class' was just about becoming possible. But opportunities have increased continuously since then. Globalisation. Free trade. Increasing wealth generally. Social movement. Good schools and Universities opening more to the 'common man'.

We should look on "median man" and applaud the fact that he has taken the increased opportunities and successfully increased his wealth.

It is absolutely no surprise whatsoever, to me anyway, that there are up to 50% of people 'above median' who will exploit these opportunities extremely well. After all, they had already performed 'above norm'. Why is it a surprise that those who had exploited existing opportunities less well, would share much less in any increasing wealth? If this were not the case, we would need to wonder if there is some problem with society.

You, yourself, admit 'reckless debt' [if I may paraphrase it so]. Is the availablity of debt - so vehemently demanded univerally by rich and poor - one of the 'opportunities' that can as equally well be exploited to make you richer, as exploited to make you far poorer?

Hence, we see today, several billionnaires with wealth they could never spend. I don't see a particular problem with this. The wealth will [generally] not disappear. It is "somewhere" and must exist somewhere in the economy - sooner or later - here or there. Maybe another country. But this country has as much opportunity to attract Russian billionaires as Russia has to attract ours? It's a free market.

In summary, I have seen a huge increase in opportunities over my 45 years of adulthood. I applaud it. I wish I had had even better opportunities than I did. The economic climate always has, and always will, go in quite volatile cycles each 5/10 years. This does not affect long term trends. Rather it affects the psyche that the more positive people exploit, and the less positive people wither on the vine - but with far, far, greater safety nets than were available any time in the past. Increased national wealth is necessary and good. The distribution of it is a minor issue, as compared to the increased opportunities (to all) to grab some of it.

boltneck123

Now that is debate.

I do not believe in taking wealth from someone who has worked hard to earn it, or indeed inherited it. I for one will not turn down anything I inherit in the future, and will look to maximise my opportunities with new said wealth.

My debt is mine alone and I am responsible for it, I do not look across at the bank or individuals who have gained from my use of it and expect them to bequeath me wealth because I made the wrong decisions.

It is indeed a free market and under the current umbrella that our society operates, not just locally but also globally, we are in competition. I find that humans, despite being extremely advanced compared to wild animals, are synonymous with them, i.e. in our quest for survival. Those who are strong will survive, in human society those who are smart will prevail.

To look at this purely from an evolutionary perspective, we would expect even more inequality, we would not care for the vulnerable and there would be no coherence in society. This is what makes the human race special, there is compassion and a general will for all to do well. Our higher intellect allows us to step aside from the rest of the world and say that we are better; we have law, are civilized etc (I feel I do not need to paint the picture anymore).

There may always be those that do well and those that do not. Myself for instance, relative to others will either be perceived as doing well or not so well. But we must all have an underlying sense of responsibility to ensure that we are all in some form secure and capable of surviving. (I concede here that in the UK & USA, and indeed in other western countries, this seems to be achieved, all be it not perfect).

There is a bigger wealth gap and building inequality, while this may not be so prominent in western society it does exist and may continue to grow (something no one should want). Globally, inequality can be seen more boldly, there are individuals without sanitation, food or clean water, what we in the west regard as basic human rights.

You say you have had 45 years of adult life to date, I have had 26, I perceive my world differently than you do yours. For the vast majority of my life I have been unaware of many issues humans face. It is only for around the last 10 or so years that I have faced the world, and really begun to understand some of the harsh realities of it. I step into a world that is obsessed with economic globalisation and from my perspective it looks like people will stop at nothing to achieve it. The distance between the steps on my 'ladder' seem much more vast than that of my fathers when he first started out in his 20's.

The solution to solving these problems I think lies in a point you made, that we should look for legitimate reasons as to why this gap exists. Once this is understood we can move towards solving them as a society and globally as a race.