Looming DMF Failure

scaredofdebt

What's "reasonable"? The 6 months quoted is not in the SOGA, it never specifies any time limits. The car is 7 years old so it would be reasonable to expect there to be some "issues" with it as time goes by.

SOGA act and car dealers don't tend to go hand in hand I'm afraid and Trading Standards are fairly weak with this sort of thing.

I don't think I've seen any mention of the car's mileage, what is it?

Retrogamer

scaredofdebt wrote: »

What's "reasonable"? The 6 months quoted is not in the SOGA, it never specifies any time limits. The car is 7 years old so it would be reasonable to expect there to be some "issues" with it as time goes by.

SOGA act and car dealers don't tend to go hand in hand I'm afraid and Trading Standards are fairly weak with this sort of thing.

I don't think I've seen any mention of the car's mileage, what is it?

SOGA with small claims court goes very well with car dealers from my reading on here and various other forums

There is also a 6 month rule as quoted here

Requesting a repair or replacement
If a customer has accepted the goods and is requesting a
repair or replacement because the goods are faulty, the onus
on who is required to prove the problem depends on how long
ago they purchased the item.

Under six months – the customer does not have to prove the
item was faulty when they bought it from you. If you disagree
it is up to you, the retailer, to prove the item did conform to
contract (or that the fault did not exist) at the time of sale.

Over six months – you are entitled to ask the customer to prove
the item was faulty when they bought it from you. If they are
able to do this they are entitled to a repair or replacement.

Source
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/738369/738375/OFT002_SOGA_explained.pdf

Car's mileage at the moment is just over 96k. Was purchased with just over 94k

forgotmyname

But the DMF has not failed. They rarely do. They just fall to bits and get very noisy and kill the startermotor by filling them with debris.

The clutch still works.

colino

The DMF, an engineering solution to no ones problem.

Retrogamer

forgotmyname wrote: »

But the DMF has not failed. They rarely do. They just fall to bits and get very noisy and kill the startermotor by filling them with debris.

The clutch still works.

If a DMF falling to bits doesn't qualify as it failing i'm not sure what would.

atrixblue.-MFR-.

GolfBravo wrote: »

To make money. Since all their competitors offer it, they have to offer it too to remain competitive.

The price difference between DMF + clutch kit and SMF conversion kit is only 10-20%. They do not offer it to save customers 10%, they offer it to save the cost of subsequent DMF replacements - when fitting your 3rd or 4th clutch you no longer have to buy a new DMF, you just buy a beefed up clutch compatible with SMF.

This is targeted specifically at drivers who struggle with their clutch technique (the main cause of DMF failure is overheating), and are expected to go through a number of clutches, eg: Ford Transit courier drivers.

Reduced long-term durability? Customers obviously don't care so why should LuK/Valeo/ZF care? It's sort of like VW now using the bottom of the range Valeo air conditioning compressors (around 20% less durable) to save money on their lower-spec cars - do Valeo care?

look at the end of the day the DMF is a motoring disaster it should never had even been developed.

there new cars having DMF's fail withing the first 3-6 years some being ectremely costly to replace, look at the mitsubishi warrior, £1300 bill for a DMF, who want thats bill in the fisrt 4-6 years of ownership. now look at SMF fitted cars how many of them SMF's go.

your research gives no time scales of what parts, how long, and how much damage for all you and we know it could take 100 years for harmonic vibrations of SMF kit (wich is old reading BTW as first gen SMF kits came with normal friction plates and not dampening plates like new SMF kits to take that vibration), to start to affect the engine.

so based on MY experience SMF kits cause no harm to your engine.

GolfBravo

atrixblue.-MFR-. wrote: »

look at the end of the day the DMF is a motoring disaster it should never had even been developed.

I don't think you understand the main engineering reason why DMFs are fitted to cars.

colino wrote: »

The DMF, an engineering solution to no ones problem.

DMF is a solution to problems of high engine torque and lack of space under the bonnet.

Today's modern engines develop more torque than ever. Take a 2.0 Mondeo diesel for example: a rough diesel engine, lots of vibration and 320Nm of torque.

To handle this sort of vibration and torque there are 3 available manual transmission options:
1. a large and durable heavy duty transmission, like the Tremec TR3160, easily capable of 400Nm of torque, coupled with a huge heavy duty clutch and SMF, but: the transmission weights 55kg, and is over 70cm long (doesn't fit into a FDW car), clutch pedal requires extra strength to depress, high fuel consumption, and very high NVH levels. There is no FWD version available, simply because it would not fit under the bonnet.
2. a small and light transmission, like the Getrag 6MTT280, capable of 320Nm or torque, coupled to a small clutch and DMF: light and comapct design (42kg, 37cm long), low NVH levels, capable of high torque with DMF.
3. fit a compact and light transmission, made of expensive magnesium and composites, medium sized clutch and SMF: very light and compact, but very expensive

The most logical option here is 2 - tiny gearbox, made of steel/some magnesium/aluminium/plastic, cheap to mass produce, protected by a DMF.

DMF is a consumable/sacrificial part - its job is to not only make the engine feel smoother, but mainly to protect the tiny transmission. At the end of the day it is much cheaper to replace DMF every 120K miles than a transmission.

colino

It's an interesting, one sided, view of why DMFs were introduced to improve NVH in small passenger cars, but quoting the people who sold the idea to car manufacturers doesn't make it right. NVH has been adequately resolved in much higher torque passenger vehicles than is the need at the family car end of the market (which haven't in the majority of applications noticeably shrunk) and DMFs were certainly not designed to be sacrificial components.
Lighter weight materials, balancing shafts and proper blue-printing of engines should have binned this horrific Heath Robinson device at birth. The DMF, will laughingly be remembered in history as the equal of the catalytic convertor - the magic panacea to California Air quality, bolted on to everything, despite competitors work on lean burn engines, instead of improving the US home manufacturers gas-guzzling V8 engines of the era.

GolfBravo

colino wrote: »

Lighter weight materials, balancing shafts and proper blue-printing of engines should have binned this horrific Heath Robinson device at birth.

In an ideal world yes.

But at the end of the day it all comes to £££. A DMF incremental cost (for a car manufacturer) is on average under €25 (around £21). Making a super-smooth running powertrain with lightweight materials would add hundreds of £.

atrixblue.-MFR-.

i know exactly how and what purpoese the DMF serves i read many tech data sheets on the issue.

trouble is the DMF comes with faults an many fail within your quoted 120k plus miles, making the person who ownes the car spend out on a DMF that shouldnt be needed at all.

my rover 1.8 16v has a DMF it failed on 56k. having owned rovers without DMF's i find the SMF much more better ride than a DMF fitted engine.

your posting all these stats, yet connot produce hard evidence to back up your claims that it A modern SMF kit HAS caused impending doom.

im not interested in what manufacturers have done to produce a FWD engined vehicle because previously the box was too big to do it it just says that they will opt for low cost parts to produce such things not thinking of product quality and reliability to the customer.

like above poster said, there are other ways to cure vibrations, blue printing, balancing etc. the extra cost of that should never outweight reputation quality and reliability in a product.

modern SMF kits are fitted with dampening plate to take the vibrations a DMF would.

your struggling to provide any information directly linking to SMF kits causing actual failures.