Dads bank card cloned

brutus1983

My dad went to draw soe money out earlier on and was unable to with it saying it reached his limits for withdrawals for the day which he hadn't used a cash machine that day

He went in the bank which they told him it was used at 11 am to draw out 250 which he hadn't as he was with me sitting in a jam on the m6 at that time they can't say where it was withdrawn yet


He's changed the pin and canceled the card and ordered a new 1 but the main question is will he get his money back or will he be out of pocket

ChumpusRex

You will need to contact the police and make a report of fraud. The bank will investigate the fraud, which will likely include retrieving the CCTV recordings from the relevant cash machines. In general, if fraud is proven, then the bank will tend to repay. However, if the PIN was used, then that is a big get-out for the bank.

It is in the terms and conditions of the card, that you are liable for any fraud if you have been negligent in the use of your card, for example, by failing to shield your PIN when entering it, or by choosing an easily guessed PIN.

Banks are known to, in this sort of case, go through all the CCTV footage of you accessing your account with an ATM, and checking to see if you cover the keypad when entering your PIN. They can use video of you entering your PIN without covering your hands as proof of negligent card usage and decline your claim.

Thankfully, things are easier now. The first person who reported money stolen by an apparently cloned chip & PIN card, was herself arrested for fraud, after the bank's lawyers stated that it was impossible for a chip & PIN card to be cloned.

She went to jail for a year, lost her job, etc. before security experts proved that the banks were wrong and that cloning was very possible. The bank eventually ended up paying £50 compensation.

matttye

ChumpusRex wrote: »

You will need to contact the police and make a report of fraud. The bank will investigate the fraud, which will likely include retrieving the CCTV recordings from the relevant cash machines. In general, if fraud is proven, then the bank will tend to repay. However, if the PIN was used, then that is a big get-out for the bank.

It is in the terms and conditions of the card, that you are liable for any fraud if you have been negligent in the use of your card, for example, by failing to shield your PIN when entering it, or by choosing an easily guessed PIN.

Banks are known to, in this sort of case, go through all the CCTV footage of you accessing your account with an ATM, and checking to see if you cover the keypad when entering your PIN. They can use video of you entering your PIN without covering your hands as proof of negligent card usage and decline your claim.

Thankfully, things are easier now. The first person who reported money stolen by an apparently cloned chip & PIN card, was herself arrested for fraud, after the bank's lawyers stated that it was impossible for a chip & PIN card to be cloned.

She went to jail for a year, lost her job, etc. before security experts proved that the banks were wrong and that cloning was very possible. The bank eventually ended up paying £50 compensation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/209/regulation/62/made

"62.—(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), the payer is liable up to a maximum of £50 for any losses incurred in respect of unauthorised payment transactions arising—

(a)from the use of a lost or stolen payment instrument; or
(b)where the payer has failed to keep the personalised security features of the payment instrument safe, from the misappropriation of the payment instrument.

(2) The payer is liable for all losses incurred in respect of an unauthorised payment transaction where the payer—

(a)has acted fraudulently; or
(b)has with intent or gross negligence failed to comply with regulation 57."

And

"Obligations of the payment service user in relation to payment instruments

57.—(1) A payment service user to whom a payment instrument has been issued must—

(a)use the payment instrument in accordance with the terms and conditions governing its issue and use; and
(b)notify the payment service provider in the agreed manner and without undue delay on becoming aware of the loss, theft, misappropriation or unauthorised use of the payment instrument.
(2) The payment service user must on receiving a payment instrument take all reasonable steps to keep its personalised security features safe."

The fact that a PIN was used does not necessarily mean someone acted with gross negligence in keeping their card personalised security features safe.

I'm not convinced you have to report anything to the police either; I reported some fraudulent mobile credit top up transactions on my account a few years ago and my bank refunded me without even mentioning the police.

alanq

It's usually up to the bank to contact police.

"Credit Cards, Bank Debit Cards, Cheques and Bank Accounts

If your credit card, bank debit card, cheques or bank details have been used by fraudsters, your bank or other financial Institution must be informed, they make a report to the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau (NFIB).
A report should be made to Action Fraud in addition to a report that your bank or other financial institution may make, in the following circumstances:

• The card/account involved is not a UK bank or financial institution.
• Your bank or financial institution will not reimburse you or they have asked you to make a report.
• You have information which may identify the perpetrator of the fraud, (including merchant chargebacks)."

http://content.met.police.uk/Site/reportingfraud

Bloomberg

brutus1983 wrote: »

My dad went to draw soe money out earlier on and was unable to with it saying it reached his limits for withdrawals for the day which he hadn't used a cash machine that day

He went in the bank which they told him it was used at 11 am to draw out 250 which he hadn't as he was with me sitting in a jam on the m6 at that time they can't say where it was withdrawn yet


He's changed the pin and canceled the card and ordered a new 1 but the main question is will he get his money back or will he be out of pocket

What a horror story. Your dad should get his money back but the bank may not be overly lively. Without meaning to preach I have written repeatedly that debit cards should only be used for cash withdrawals and even then ideally in machines located inside the branch. Had his credit card been cloned then he would be arguing about the bank's money rather than his own.



I very rarely use my debit card even in ATMs. Everything goes on my credit card, petrol, shopping, and even beers in the pub. I have the Barclaycard app so I can check my account daily whilst on the move. My advice would be to keep on the banks back and in the meantime use a credit card, if he doesn't already have one then he should apply for one today.

al25

I thought that chip cards are very secure and cannot be cloned.

Bloomberg

al25 wrote: »

I thought that chip cards are very secure and cannot be cloned.

Chip and PIN is very secure but by no means foolproof. Banks are constantly trying to stay one step ahead of criminals. As soon as the bank introduce something new someone is trying to beat it. You cannot be too careful nowadays.


I was in a pub the other day and wanted to open a tab, the bar man wanted to keep my card behind the bar. I refused, letting your card out of sight is asking for trouble.

grumbler

al25 wrote: »

I thought that chip cards are very secure and cannot be cloned.

So did I.
I am pretty sure that dad didn't have the card on him when sitting in the jam on M6 at the time when the money was withdrawn.

Hominu

al25 wrote: »

I thought that chip cards are very secure and cannot be cloned.

That's what the banks want you to believe. Its very difficult to make an exact duplicate, but one sufficient to spend online at certain stores and at specific ATMs is a lot easier.

Uxb

ChumpusRex wrote: »

Thankfully, things are easier now. The first person who reported money stolen by an apparently cloned chip & PIN card, was herself arrested for fraud, after the bank's lawyers stated that it was impossible for a chip & PIN card to be cloned.

She went to jail for a year, lost her job, etc. before security experts proved that the banks were wrong and that cloning was very possible. The bank eventually ended up paying £50 compensation.

Link to the case and subsequent appeal court overturning of the lower court's decision?

JuicyJesus

al25 wrote: »

I thought that chip cards are very secure and cannot be cloned.

They are very secure. The unencrypted magnetic strip on the back of every single one however is not. In fact it's the opposite of secure, and it's the target of every skimming device going.

OP's dad's card was most likely cloned using a device on the front of an ATM reading the magstripe, which can be used to create a functionally identical magstripe-only card using inexpensive hardware and software. Nothing to do with Chip and PIN. Were the magstripe not present, cloned card fraud would more or less die out overnight.