Power of Attorney - bank refuse to recognise

nom_de_plume

Judy_Judy wrote: »

As soon as it was registered I brought it into the bank and showed them.

When you say you showed them, did they take a copy to pass to the 'relevant department' and did you get any form of written confirmation back through the post? If they don't have the fact it's been registered with the Court of Protection on file, this may be what's causing the problem.

rozmister

I know you don't want your Mum's last years to perhaps include seeing her son being arrested but I would consider contacting the police and explaining that and asking them if they could speak to your brother at least. Perhaps the police turning up on his doorstep would make him realise that if you have to you will prosecute him and he needs to back off.

I'd really recommend the Alzheimer's Society who you said you would contact. I've done some work with them and they're an amazing organisation. I would also consider going to your local paper/the Mail's money section about the situation if it is unresolved and warn the bank's Head Office beforehand (maybe a week or two before you intend to). This kind of press would be a disaster for them so they will want to prevent it wherever possible.

I hope you manage to sort it out. Just thinking about your Mum being treated like that by her own son breaks my heart. I work with vulnerable adults and I know how they can be so the idea of anyone taking advantage of them breaks my heart and makes my blood boil at the same time xxx

RAS

Judy_Judy wrote: »

Yes Ras, this is my argument. Prior to registration it could be revoked on Mum's say so. After it was registered with the OOTPG I am told that they can't. As soon as it was registered I brought it into the bank and showed them. Every time I've complained the bank just say, they are right.

One person at the bank actually said if you can prove a diagnosis of dementia we'll put it back on. That's nonsense. That much I do know. Mum does have dementia but she hasn't been told as it terrifies her. She just knows her problems are brain vessel damage that's causing her problems which is a half truth, but she's happy with that.

So you need to go to the bank with the registered POA and demand to see a manager.

I would put a bet on it that no-one at the bank ever put a copy of the registered POA on mum's file and they are therefore acting on the basis that it is not registered.

Some twerp may have taken the photocopy/scan when you went in with the registered POA and someone else thought - "oh we already have that document" and binned it.

Judy_Judy

I have tried RAS, they just wont listen, they are backing the idiot who made the decision, that's why I am second guessing myself here.

One more question, you've all been so kind I don't like to push it. BUT

If I write to the Chief Exec - I'm drafting a letter now - can I demand that they don't contact Mum as she will get upset if she thinks anyone is messing with her account, she'll get agitated even angry which is a part of her illness I know, it's not her fault.

But if I scan in the registered PoA can I then demand they don't bother her. I'm not hiding anything I just don't want her to have any more pain. I'm going to try to get her £1,000 back, if I succeed in getting them to give it back, I'll tell her then.

I don't have any proof but each telephone and personal complaint I've made I've repeated it.

I think I may have one idea though, when I've said it's registered, they may think it is registered with the bank not the OOTPG but I do say it's the OOTPG and repeated their advice to the bank which they bullheadedly refuse to accept.

Judy_Judy

The press is a major one for us Ros because the relation who fraudulently accessed mum's account, is married to a small time politician (not an MP) but enough to give the media some headlines which Lloyds wouldn't be too keen on.

Sadly it would really upset mum and anything that upsets her isn't going to happen if I can help it. One for the back burner though.:cool:

DaftyDuck

Edit: Apologies added for the length... I am venting my spleen over a similar issue... there is some relevant stuff at the bottom, honest!

I wrote a long post on this this morning, then deleted it before posting, partly as it was badly worded tripe, partly because it was emotional.... Here goes again. There will be a rambling spleen-vent before some more relevant bits... sorry..

I had a very similar situation for two years about three years ago. Ma also had Vascular Dementia, sister was doing much of the caring, but seemed a little too-ready to dip into Ma's money. I did nothing about that side of it, as with sis as the carer, it's difficult to say no, etc. In your case, brother is definitely not acting in anyone but his own interests.

I've more to say on the bank side. My trouble was with HSBC, not Lloyds (shame, as I could have passed you the names of the Dept. that finally sorted it... took 2 years to find they existed, they sorted the problem in 8 hours!). POA had stood unregistered for a few years, as ma slowly declined. When the time came to register it, all seemed to go smoothly, and it did work with several minor bank accounts... it appeared to work with HSBC. I worked closely with Ma's Personal Banking manager, or some tripe, bills got paid, money was freed for care costs... then, the Personal Advisor left, in a hurry, owing to ill health.

A few weeks later, I travelled the 200 miles to go to Ma's bank, to see his replacement for a pre-arranged appointment. They couldn't (!) tell me if he was in the building... Next time I tried to transfer some money for her latest care costs, I was told I couldn't. When I asked why, I was told they couldn't tell me, and when I asked why that was, they literally put the phone down. I went to the bank local branch, found an advisor, who started to talk to me, then on looking on her computer screen said she'd have to check something, and left the room. About ten minutes later, a different bod came in, and said the original person couldn't return, and I'd have to make other arrangements....
I phoned up various bits of HSBC to be fobbed off each time, and never even able to access Ma's money for her care costs. Luckily, other bank accounts she had were fully obliging, very helpful.

It took 2 years to get to the bottom of this. (I did have a few other rather emotional problems related to Ma that were more important). What had happened was, the EPA was given to the personal banking manager. He'd shipped it off to their central office for registration. They'd shipped it back with a simple query, but the PB was off temporarily sick. His various line managers had been absent and, by default, it had ended up on the desk of the Regional Manager, London & South East (or some such title)... who was flummoxed as to what to do with it, especially as it was marked "URGENT" in big red letters.... So, he did the obvious,he filed it, under "U" for "unimportant drivel that I can't be ar5ed to deal with".

The PB manager returned, quite satisfied it must have all gone through, and happily carried on handling Ma's affairs on my say-so, or, since he knew me and Ma, was untroubled by paying her bills. Fine. Then, he had his big heart attack (poor chap... he was kind) and left, so the next bod was passed the buck... and found no trace of the POA. Well, there was a paper trace to who last had it, and it was his boss's boss's boss's boss. Or some such. There was therefore no REGISTERED POA, ma was now as senile as a High Court Judge and couldn't sign a new one, and a senior bod at HSBC was busy covering his butt with as many layers of obfuscation as he could. Eventually, in a local HSBC, I found a small middle-aged lady who was a junior financial advisor who was half terrier, half rottweiler, and also half decent. She worked out from the computer trail what had happened, found all sorts of things on the computer system that really, really shouldn't have been there, printed a whole batch off and stuck them down in a big envelope, sealed it with loads of selotape, and said "that's just in case you need it later.... don't open it for a while"... and picked up the phone. She was genuinely trembling with worry at making the calls at the beginning... lather, she was having the time of her life... pointed out she'd got her "killer heels on today" It took about three solid hours on the phone, with her lambasting this bloke and several of his colleagues, she herself raised four separate complaints against the senior staff on my behalf, and also a fifth one against a member of the complaint staff that I'd got through to ... and she raised it with that person in question... she was literally on fire. The more she asked people, the angrier she got with what they had done, and why they did it.

I'd arrived at the bank in a state of nervous exhaustion and nearly in tears (I'd just got off the phone with HSBC, having spent about 2 hours talking to them, and finally someone had refused to talk to me unless I phoned from and HSBC branch, so that's really all I expected from that visit. By the end, I was almost in hysterical laughter at what she'd achieved. Turned out that lady had a mother who was in early stages of dementia, and she was personally furious at the problems I'd been given.

OK FINALLY some bits of relevance.

The PoA, once registered CANNOT be rescinded, except by the Court of Attorney (which is a very involved process, and you'd certainly know all about it), or by you, if you've chosen not to continue... even then, the Court takes it over, and nominates a lawyer or other "expert" to take it on, not a family member. Your brother, your mother, and the bank cannot rescind it. Indeed, access to the account by anyone other than you (assuming PoA is yours alone) is now just as serious offence as it would be if I accessed your account. The bank should be responsible for restitution if they have debited money from her account. It'd be up to them to chase your brother for its return, not you. They would have to refund first, and chase second.

So, what would I do, having been through this (similar, anyway). Firstly, find out about Lloyds complaints procedures, so you are pre-armed with telephone numbers and procedure. I'd look online, so you might as well do that yourself. Secondly, call the bank, ask to be put through to the manager of the branch, state that unless the matter is resolved by close of business that day, you will firstly raise an official complaint with the bank, and with the Court of Attorney, and that you will also raise the matter with the police (you need not actually do this...) as a bank account that you have full control of under the PoA has been illegally accessed, and the bank has not rectified the matter.

If the matter is not resolved immediately, I'd raise a complaint against the transaction your brother made (you don't need to know who or when; they'll deal with that), but I'd also raise a separate complaint against the manager for his failure to act. When you do so, state that time is of the essence, and that you are concerned that further illegal transactions (don't need to state who... it'd even be illegal for ma to remove money) may be made in the interim, and you hold the bank fully accountable for any such losses.... otherwise they normally say they have 28 days to write to you with a resolution, and if you are not then satisfied you can.... More complaints is good, as I found out. They all go their separate ways, depending on what or who is complained about, and one usually hits a target.

Sorry this has turned into a vent... It gets quite emotional, all this, doesn't it?

Just one final thought to make your blood boil.... The Alzheimer's Society is Lloyds "Nominated Charity" at the moment.... :eek:

rpc

Stop talking and write. You should follow their formal complaints process, but also sending a copy to the top won't hurt. Bank staff are not as well trained as they used to be and often do not have the authority that they used to have (we all want cheap banking, so branches are run more cheaply!).

Basis for complaint:
1 - You have LPOA which you first showed them on date X
2 - You registered the LPOA with the OPG and presented this to them on date Y
3 - The bank subsequently refused to acknowledge the registered LPOA from date Z
4 - A registered LPOA cannot be revoked without court order as the donor lacks the mental capacity to do so
5 - Knowing that a registered LPOA was in place, the bank should not have permitted the withdrawal (particularly under duress from brother) because they knew that the account holder lacked the capacity to handle her finances

Action required from bank:
1 - Confirm that the registered LPOA is acceptable
2 - Reverse the withdrawal
3 - Prevent any further access to the account other than by the attorney. Cancel all cards and issue a new one to the attorney only.

As the attorney, you are not just complaining on your behalf - you have the full authority of your mother. You are legally obliged to act in your mother's best interests and if she lacks capacity then this may bring you into conflict with her wishes.

You may need to explain the circumstances of the withdrawal slightly - the easiest way to reverse the withdrawal is to pay the money back in. You will need to justify not being able to do that.

DaftyDuck

rpc has put it far better (and far, far more succinctly ) than I did. I'd agree with the "write" sentence at the beginning, but I would call first, certainly to the complaints department.... if they are anything like HSBC, they are actually more geared for a telephone complaint than a written one. Following the call up with a written complaint would be good.

Lloyds have been so wrong in what they have done to you & your mum here that, if you manage to get the right person, it should really be corrected pretty much immediately. It's getting hold of the right person that seems to be near-impossible.

Judy_Judy

Dafty no wonder you need to vent. RPC thank I have been writing but I am going to use your template to structure what I've done as it is a little rambling.

Cheers.

nom_de_plume

^^^^ @ DaftyDuck - Awesome vent. 10/10. Would read again :-)