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On Call Hours?? Legal??
Comments
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something you could consider taking into the negotiations is a suggestion of how things could be improved ANYWAY!
WHY are you being called so often? If it's user incompetence, then that's a training issue. If it's user ignorance, ditto. If there's unreliable hardware, then it needs replacing. Etc.
If there's others who could reasonably be expected to share the on-call work, then let them. It's never a good idea to have things like this in the hands of one person - what if you fall under a bus tomorrow? Or have that heart attack? Or find another job?
It's not just you feeling fed-up and having a moan, it's good business sense.
And if you can't get the managers together quickly, write to them both!Signature removed for peace of mind0 -
A
PS: I'm not an employment lawyer, just one of the IT guys who doesn't agree with brazilianwax's OH. But admittedly I'm often in the more comfortable situation of the employer needing me more than me needing them.
Oh, and I've been working since 7am this morning. Maybe I should heed my own advice... :rotfl:
Ahem.
My OH is an MD. :whistle::A MSE's turbo-charged CurlyWurlyGirly:A
Thinks Naughty Things Too Much Clique Member No 3, 4 & 5 0 -
Hi!
Thanks for such a detailed reply!As a lot of the other people have said, check your contract for any suggestions that the company has the right to shackle you to your desk (namely the working time opt-out, because from what I remember they can't just get anyone to sign the opt-out; you have to be in a managerial position in the first place in order to qualify).
Ok, i am going to take a peep at my contract tomorrow, i do believe tho when i signed it 2 years ago i did not sign for anything along those lines.So, the first question - what is your actual role? Are you:
a) The sysadmin, in which case I'd say you're not a manager
b) Managing the sysadmin(s) and sticking your oar in as well? Although I'd be wondering why you are fixing the systems in that case instead of setting up a rota.
Just calling someone a manager doesn't necessarily mean that s/he is one...
I believe it is a real manager position, i manage a very small team of us, making sure the network guy is doing his stuff, reporting back to me, making sure the general support gets done and customers are happy!I've been in similar positions (I'm a software developer/team leader and have done the sysadmin thing as well) but I was never the only person on call. As a team leader I was often the escalation point so I was implicitly on call even if it wasn't my shift, but not in the sense that I couldn't go to the pub!
The problem i have is, without sounding like i am blowing my own trumpet is that i know all of our systems. i know the building inside out and all of the IT infastructure. Mostly because i fitted most of it lol!
The problem i have is the people underneath me dont know enough to be able to do on call without having to bother me any way! I have tried and tried and tried training, but it just doesnt sink in.
Its not stupid stuff that anyone can fix, the systems we use are quite complex and the way it is setup isnt straight forward.From experience, here's what I would do, based on prior experience of similar situations. No particular order...- Talk to your GP. Your work schedule is playing with your health and unless you are going for "earliest recorded heart attack", you need to do something about that. Before you become a danger to yourself and others, get a sick note if that's the only thing your employer understands. And if you've got one, turn the effing phone off.
Funny you should say that as i am at the doctors at 10am tomorrow. I am going to bring work up with her. My problem with a sick note is as i mentioned earlier, i cannot afford to have time off (i recently posted in DFW section of the forum) i dont get a single peny for time off and that is something i cannot do with.[*]Come to an arrangement regarding working times. If you get called between 10pm and 3am and it's not a 30 second job to fix, then you need to recover from this. I'd say it would be totally unreasonable to expect you to do that and work a full day as well. There's no point in you driving your car into a ditch or ending up under a bus because you fell asleep at the wrong moment.
This has been an issue with me for a long time. If i get called out during the night the latest i can go in without a fuss being made of it is an hour late. With regards to falling asleep at the wheels of my car, hmmm, it has happened before, just thank god it was stationary at the time.[*]Depending on the reaction of your employer, talk to a solicitor or union rep if you've got one. I'm not advocating the legal route unless as a last resort but you clearly need to know what your rights are here.
We dont have a union rep. Do you think there is a posibility of this ending up going down a legal route?[*]Go look for another job, these guys are taking advantage of you big time.
I am onto it, just brushing up my CV (been at it for 2 weeks now) i just cant seem to get it how i want it. The other problem I have is all i have behind me is 2 experience and a college qualification which is now useless.[*]The fact that the company expects you to pay for your work tools (especially the phone) is unacceptable. Get them to provide you with a company phone and make sure they pay the bill. Otherwise, turn the damn thing off.
I made the mistake of turning my phone off once.... during that time it was sods law we had a major outage. Following day i was in the office for a telling off![*]Start keeping track of the actual hours worked. Keep an unofficial timesheet, record when you get called in the middle of the night and how long the issues take to resolve. The 48 hour limit is an average over a fairly long time so in order to qualify for anything under said directive, you'll need to keep a diary to prove that you're pretty much consistently over the limit.
I have a diary now, but i dont keep info in much detail. Will keep more info from now on.[*]What's the worst thing that can happen? If you're any good in your job, you'll find another one, quickly.
[*]And as an encore, use the unofficial timesheet to work out if you're being paid less than minimum wage per hour worked.
Good point, my only problem is my job at the min is Very specialised, i mean the MS 2k3 and associated support is standard, but the bulk of my work is specialised stuff.
I will trying to work my hours out in the suggest way.All in all, I'd say the first thing you should do is acquaint yourself with http://www.jobserve.com/ - I think you are probably underpaid for the work you do anyway, and that's before you start working 24/7.
PS: I'm not an employment lawyer, just one of the IT guys who doesn't agree with brazilianwax's OH. But admittedly I'm often in the more comfortable situation of the employer needing me more than me needing them.
hmmm, once my cv is done i am going to get our there and look for a new job. I really want to move into the field engineer side of things.
I should think with my knowledge of the infastructure at our place they would find it very hard if i left. But they probably wont notice that until i am gone.Oh, and I've been working since 7am this morning. Maybe I should heed my own advice... :rotfl:
Get to bed!!!!
Just on the phone to the office trying to talk some numpty through how to put a network lead back in. Nice and simple one for once lol! (he says...)
Thanks for the advice, i really mean that!
Thanks
Chris0 -
something you could consider taking into the negotiations is a suggestion of how things could be improved ANYWAY!
WHY are you being called so often? If it's user incompetence, then that's a training issue. If it's user ignorance, ditto. If there's unreliable hardware, then it needs replacing. Etc.
If there's others who could reasonably be expected to share the on-call work, then let them. It's never a good idea to have things like this in the hands of one person - what if you fall under a bus tomorrow? Or have that heart attack? Or find another job?
It's not just you feeling fed-up and having a moan, it's good business sense.
And if you can't get the managers together quickly, write to them both!
Thanks for the reply!
Things could be drastically improved! and its not just to do with this post, i also have some issues with my working environment..
I am called sooo often for a number of reasons, some of them valid.
Data wise we have about 150 ISDN connections and 20 Broadband connections serving a number of 24hr solutions. Now if one of them go wrong then i need to know so it can be fixed. none of them can be left to the following morning as what the business does protects peoples property and most importantly lives!
We use software from about 10 different providers and to be perfectly honest with you, i would say only two of them are any good. Even one of them two have recently released a major *uck-up of a new version. which caused me a crappy Christmas as i was in for near enough 3 days solid from teh 24th.
Supervisor stupidity is also a problem, cant be arsed getting my "How to fix it manual" out or the "Guide to system Passwords" as its much easier to pick up the phone and speed dial to me. because to be honest, they don't care....
Thankfully hardware isn't much of an issue, i have enough redundancy in place to combat that and a switch over can be done from my laptop anywhere i can get a signal in the UK.
Another thing i will get calls for a blown fuses on the main board, apparently i am the only person out of hours they can call about this. But also if it is a fuse on the fuse board then it will usually take some computers out as well.
Thankfully power cuts ain't a problem as we have auto switching mains UPS backup with 2x 60kv generators
Another one, phone call 5am "BEEEEEP BEEEEEEEP BEEEEEEP BEEEEEEEEP chirs the fire alarm is going off what do we do??? it wont go off!!"
Also there are a few people in there that for reasons i don't know of they just don't like me, so the jokers of a shift will call at a stupid hour with a make believe problem for the fun of it!
I think you get the picture now, lol.
Thanks
Chris0 -
Hi!
Thanks for such a detailed reply!
Ok, i am going to take a peep at my contract tomorrow, i do believe tho when i signed it 2 years ago i did not sign for anything along those lines.
Right, if you haven't opted out from the working time directive, and in my field (banks) we always had to sign a separate opt-out, so I think you may have noticed that. I don't think it's even legal to make it a condition of employment, which IMHO it would be if it was part of the contract instead of a separate document. If you haven't opted out and your employer is aware of the hours you work then they are blatantly breaking the law, period.I believe it is a real manager position, i manage a very small team of us, making sure the network guy is doing his stuff, reporting back to me, making sure the general support gets done and customers are happy!
OK, that is important - if you are in a managerial position that (as I said, as far as I know) changes matters somewhat.The problem i have is, without sounding like i am blowing my own trumpet is that i know all of our systems. i know the building inside out and all of the IT infastructure. Mostly because i fitted most of it lol!
The problem i have is the people underneath me dont know enough to be able to do on call without having to bother me any way! I have tried and tried and tried training, but it just doesnt sink in.
Its not stupid stuff that anyone can fix, the systems we use are quite complex and the way it is setup isnt straight forward.
Right, that is a problem and that's a problem that may get thrown back in your court. If you're the manager then it is your responsibility to ensure that your staff is capable of doing the work. If they aren't then it's your responsibility to sort out some training or a P45 if they prove to be completely clue-resistant.
If you don't have the authority to do that then there's something wrong with the way you're job is setup (in my opinion).
You absolutely need to get this situation under control and that means ensuring that other people can do the overnight callout without having to call you.Funny you should say that as i am at the doctors at 10am tomorrow. I am going to bring work up with her. My problem with a sick note is as i mentioned earlier, i cannot afford to have time off (i recently posted in DFW section of the forum) i dont get a single peny for time off and that is something i cannot do with.
Hang on a sec, you're an employee, right? If you're an employee and you're genuinely sick, how can your employer refuse to pay you the statuatory sick pay?
I mean, I'm Evil Kontractor Scum so if I don't work I don't get paid but that's different...This has been an issue with me for a long time. If i get called out during the night the latest i can go in without a fuss being made of it is an hour late. With regards to falling asleep at the wheels of my car, hmmm, it has happened before, just thank god it was stationary at the time.
OK, that isn't acceptable at all - after all, if it was after a heavy night's partying it would be your problem but if you're basically working 24 hours a day then it is someone else's problem as well.
If your employer knows about this and still doesn't do anything about it or give you the authority to do anything about it, I'd say they are neglecting their duty of care quite severely.We dont have a union rep. Do you think there is a posibility of this ending up going down a legal route?
Potentially, yes. They seem to have a very relaxed attitude towards employment laws. The problem is that you need to be reasonably rested and fit to go hunt for another job - I for one wouldn't be overly impressed if I were interviewing you and you fell asleep
. At least I'm still hoping I'm not that boring yet...I am onto it, just brushing up my CV (been at it for 2 weeks now) i just cant seem to get it how i want it. The other problem I have is all i have behind me is 2 experience and a college qualification which is now useless.
You've got job experience, so that's a big bonus. Plus it sounds like a position that requires a lot of responsibility, which is even better. TBH I don't think it'd be that much of a problem to find something if you spin it right.
If you think you need someone else to go over your CV, ping me a PM and I'll send you my email addy.I made the mistake of turning my phone off once.... during that time it was sods law we had a major outage. Following day i was in the office for a telling off!
If you're not on call then you should be able to turn your phone off.I have a diary now, but i dont keep info in much detail. Will keep more info from now on.
You absolutely need to. Both as part of the negotiating process and worst case, if you have to get a lawyer on the case. Especially in the latter case.Good point, my only problem is my job at the min is Very specialised, i mean the MS 2k3 and associated support is standard, but the bulk of my work is specialised stuff.
I will trying to work my hours out in the suggest way.
Well, all the work is to a certain extent specialised, and domain knowledge is usually worth more than the general knowledge. Find out who your employer's competitors are and if they need someone with similar skills. And then go and talk to them for a job.
Also check your contract - if it has a non-compete agreement in it your employer may try to cause more trouble for you. From my talks with employment and HR people I'm pretty sure they're not enforceable as they can't deny you to make a living, but they can try.hmmm, once my cv is done i am going to get our there and look for a new job. I really want to move into the field engineer side of things.
I should think with my knowledge of the infastructure at our place they would find it very hard if i left. But they probably wont notice that until i am gone.
And even if they do, it's not your problem anymore :rotfl:.Get to bed!!!!
Just on the phone to the office trying to talk some numpty through how to put a network lead back in. Nice and simple one for once lol! (he says...)
I think you need to hire a better class of simian if you get called for that (or hold a training class in putting network cables back in!
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brazilianwax wrote: »Ahem.
My OH is an MD. :whistle:
Is that strengthening or weakening his case that he knows about IT?
(Assistant Vice President - Meaningless Job Titles Division)0 -
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Sounds like your getting well and truly exploited here. Correct my if im wrong, but your yearly earnings from your original post are somewhere in the region of 20k, for full time+24/7 on call?? I would just leave, another job to go to or not.
I work in IT/telecoms and am on call 1 week in every 4 and get paid £150 basic for it plus any overtime, company phone, laptop, broardband at home and expenses for on call. We used to get called all time, but done a lot of work improving things for the users so they can sort out most problems themselves, so we only have to deal with anything major now.
As another poster mentions - as a manager isnt it your responsibility to manage the situation? i.e. training, new skilled staff ( know how difficult these can be to find!), callout procedure i.e. what constitutes a callout and what you and your team are prepared to deal with. If your position is as specialised as you say it is I doubt your employer will want to loose you so surely should work with you on this??0 -
Just a note guys,
Been to the doctors this morning and have been given 2 weeks sick.
I was not going to take it but she said i am stupid if i dont as things are really affecting ym health.
I phoned my employer when i got home and they were not too pleased that i am off.
I am going to struggle to make ends meet over the next month or two as a result of me taking time off and just getting SSP.
I do have a plan though, as already since it has been announced that i am off for two weeks i have had 2 calls from my team as they dont know how to do some think (or stand on there own two feet) now ok. they are very important things.
Should i take the odd phone call during the day at reasonable time? (ie: 10am - 4pm?) and then use this as means to get my employer to pay me full pay during my time off?
Thanks
Chris0 -
Just seen this thread - I truely feel for you you must be a walking zombie.
As fortaking calls when off sick don't do it you are off to rest and recuperate, this will show your bosses that something has to be done I really don't want to sound morbid here but if you were knocked down by a bus tomorrow the company would have to cope.
Your health is more important than any job, jobs may come and go but you MUST look after your health.0
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