Restaurant keeping staff tips

AP007

Naf wrote: »

Looks promising; but anyone know any relevant legislation that this would be derived from?

OP you are only talking about cash tips?

edit:

Oh ok afterwards you say all tips

Cash tips have to be kept by staff but credit cards and debit cards can be kept by the company as long as they are not suing them for the payroll to make up the NMW

Naf

AP007 wrote: »

OP you are only talking about cash tips?

edit:

Oh ok afterwards you say all tips

Cash tips have to be kept by staff but credit cards and debit cards can be kept by the company as long as they are not suing them for the payroll to make up the NMW

But where is this stipulated?

Boss is claiming that anything left on his premises is belongs to him and he can therefore keep all tips if he wants.

nimbo

Naf wrote: »

But where is this stipulated?

Boss is claiming that anything left on his premises is belongs to him and he can therefore keep all tips if he wants.

at the end of each shift share out the cash tips....

it doesn't help with the card tips but yar boo sucks to be the vile boss in this instance...

AP007

Naf wrote: »

But where is this stipulated?

Boss is claiming that anything left on his premises is belongs to him and he can therefore keep all tips if he wants.

You tell the boss you have not received any or ask the boss if you can tell the customers this?

I am sure like I have said they DO NOT want the customers knowing the boss keeps the £££

They have to tell the customer where the tip is going or its service charge and not a tip!! Service charges are added to bills and given to the company in order to pay the staff better for the service and not to pay for breakages and the like.


Right at the bottom http://www.catererandhotelkeeper.co.uk/articles/22/5/2009/327826/tip-off-how-to-keep-cash-tips-within-the-law.htm

Employers

• You cannot force employees to pool or share cash tips.
• If staff operate a pooling system you must tell HMRC about it.
• If you control the pooling system, national insurance will be due. If you fail to pay it, you will be held responsible by HMRC.

Employees

• If you receive your cash tips without deduction of tax, it is your responsibility to keep an accurate record and declare these annually to HMRC. If you don't, you will be held responsible for the tax plus interest and penalties.
• HMRC can assess up to four years back.
• The onus is on you to disprove any HMRC estimates

Naf

AP007 wrote: »

You tell the boss you have not received any or ask the boss if you can tell the customers this?

I am sure like I have said they DO NOT want the customers knowing the boss keeps the £££

They have to tell the customer where the tip is going or its service charge and not a tip!! Service charges are added to bills and given to the company in order to pay the staff better for the service and not to pay for breakages and the like.


Right at the bottom http://www.catererandhotelkeeper.co.uk/articles/22/5/2009/327826/tip-off-how-to-keep-cash-tips-within-the-law.htm

Employers

• You cannot force employees to pool or share cash tips.
• If staff operate a pooling system you must tell HMRC about it.
• If you control the pooling system, national insurance will be due. If you fail to pay it, you will be held responsible by HMRC.

Employees

• If you receive your cash tips without deduction of tax, it is your responsibility to keep an accurate record and declare these annually to HMRC. If you don't, you will be held responsible for the tax plus interest and penalties.
• HMRC can assess up to four years back.
• The onus is on you to disprove any HMRC estimates

I read it; but there's no links to anything legal.

AP007

Naf wrote: »

I read it; but there's no links to anything legal.

'Many employees will often agree to pool or share their cash tips, but an employer cannot force a member of staff to do this. A business that disciplined or even dismissed an employee who refused to share their cash tips would probably find itself before an employment tribunal.'

Your company are asking you to share all the cash tips (and cards) with them giving them 100% share of the tips, yes?

As I have said just inform the customers 'do not leave a 'tip' as none of the staff get them' and lets see if this works for the company

If no one is going to say anything you will be forced to hand over the cash tips and the credit cards/debit cards you cant get anyway so you are stuffed unless you stuff them first

Naf

AP007 wrote: »

'Many employees will often agree to pool or share their cash tips, but an employer cannot force a member of staff to do this. A business that disciplined or even dismissed an employee who refused to share their cash tips would probably find itself before an employment tribunal.'

Your company are asking you to share all the cash tips (and cards) with them giving them 100% share of the tips, yes?

As I have said just inform the customers 'do not leave a 'tip' as none of the staff get them' and lets see if this works for the company

If no one is going to say anything you will be forced to hand over the cash tips and the credit cards/debit cards you cant get anyway so you are stuffed unless you stuff them first

Yes, but that's not citing what legal basis there is to say so. This is the problem, that without being able to cite specific legal reasons that what they're doing is wrong, they just continue to do it and say they're right.


So my current thinking is to firstly define the payment of tips as an implied contract - a sort of weekly bonus. As it has been paid every week over a long period of time (not mine specifically; but others' have been). In addition, adverts for staff in the windows have always listed wages as 'min. wage + tips'. If the business are claiming the right to hold on to them, then clearly the business is deciding to pay them, and what appears to be a tronc is in fact controlled by the business owners.
Having established that it is part of an implied contract I can then make the refusal to pay them out to be a deduction of wages. Any deduction of wages must either be consented to by individual staff members, in writing, before it is made; or must form part of the worker's contract - provided the written contract, or explanation of it, has been provided before the deduction is made. This would make refusal to pay them to be an unfair/illegal deduction.

AP007

Naf wrote: »

Yes, but that's not citing what legal basis there is to say so. This is the problem, that without being able to cite specific legal reasons that what they're doing is wrong, they just continue to do it and say they're right.


So my current thinking is to firstly define the payment of tips as an implied contract - a sort of weekly bonus. As it has been paid every week over a long period of time (not mine specifically; but others' have been). In addition, adverts for staff in the windows have always listed wages as 'min. wage + tips'. If the business are claiming the right to hold on to them, then clearly the business is deciding to pay them, and what appears to be a tronc is in fact controlled by the business owners.
Having established that it is part of an implied contract I can then make the refusal to pay them out to be a deduction of wages. Any deduction of wages must either be consented to by individual staff members, in writing, before it is made; or must form part of the worker's contract - provided the written contract, or explanation of it, has been provided before the deduction is made. This would make refusal to pay them to be an unfair/illegal deduction.

Tronc can not be handled by the boss there has to be the tronc-master and this person is appointed by the staff NOT the company!

Tronc masters decide how the tips are shared out not the company

If tips is in the contract then its a change of contract.

So if there was a legal link we could show you, you would stand up to them?

Ask them this then - ask then where it says its legal for them to them KEEP ALL TIPS?

Ask them that and ask them to prove that they can - cash more specifically.

Like I have said they can keep card tips but not cash and its really up to you all to tell the customer as the customer has the right to know that staff will not be getting them as then like I have said it forms part of a discretional service charge that they may not have left if they knew it was not a tip.

See page 6 here again https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/198837/09-1327-national-minimum-wage-code-of-best-practice-tips.pdf

Cash tips are given to the staff and not the company.

They are conning the customers and I can tell you if I was in a restaurant and I knew the tips DIDNT go to the staff I wouldn't leave one.

Naf

AP007 wrote: »

Tronc can not be handled by the boss there has to be the tronc-master and this person is appointed by the staff NOT the company!

Tronc masters decide how the tips are shared out not the company

If tips is in the contract then its a change of contract.

So if there was a legal link we could show you, you would stand up to them?

Ask them this then - ask then where it says its legal for them to them KEEP ALL TIPS?

Ask them that and ask them to prove that they can - cash more specifically.

Like I have said they can keep card tips but not cash and its really up to you all to tell the customer as the customer has the right to know that staff will not be getting them as then like I have said it forms part of a discretional service charge that they may not have left if they knew it was not a tip.

See page 6 here again https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/198837/09-1327-national-minimum-wage-code-of-best-practice-tips.pdf

Cash tips are given to the staff and not the company.

They are conning the customers and I can tell you if I was in a restaurant and I knew the tips DIDNT go to the staff I wouldn't leave one.

You seem to be missing the point still. What you're linking to isn't law, it's a voluntary code that businesses can choose to subscribe to, or not.
I am standing up to them, but their response is as above; that cash left belongs to the business (they concede that cash put into staff's hand belongs to the staff member). Without a legal challenge, they will continue to assert that position.
I agree that most customers wouldn't leave a tip if they knew; and it seems so do the owners. But at present I'm reluctant to encourage staff to tell customers, as currently tips are only being 'withheld' on a temporary basis; permanence is just a threat right now.

This is why I believe my challenge based on an implied contract is the best bet.

iammumtoone

yes I agree not to tell the staff to tell customers to not give tips, as if the situation changes in the future it is going to be very embarrassing to have to then tell the customers "its ok now you can give me a tip"

I think the best way around it is to ask which members of staff there is a problem with and what they are doing wrong and then deal with it from there.