Flat interested has cracks in render. Who pays?

DrRadar

Hi,

First post, fingers crossed I get some good advice.

I am very interested in a property to buy but it isn't as easy as I hoped. It is a two story flat in a three story house, a separately owned flat is on the ground floor.

The flat is a leasehold with 160 years on the lease. As I understand it each flat is leasehold with a separate 3rd party freehold owner.

The issue is that there is large cracks in the external walls render in a couple of places. I was very interested in the place so I have paid for a building survey to investigate these. I am waiting on the full report back from this but the surveyor said that it wasn't just the render coming off but it should be fixable.

The estate agent then forwarded me a message showing when the current owners asked an surveyor to investigate it. His solution was shown to be £5750+VAT.

Front Exterior - Option 1
We will need to put up scaffolding at the front of the property.
We will need to remove all of the loose render and fill the cracks.
In the bigger exterior cracks we will need to install helefix bars.
We will then apply new render, re-fill and re-paint the front exterior of the building (like for like). NB This excludes the windows and door woodwork.
COST: £5,750.00 + VAT (Please note the work will take 14 working days to complete).
5 year guarantee.

Now I want to re-negotiate as this will be an added cost for me. The options seem to be:

1. They pay. Get the work done before I complete on the flat.
2. I pay but get the cost of work taken off my offer.
3. Insurance pays. The freehold owner claims on the home insurance. The two leasehold owners pay the excess on the insurance.

The estate agent asked if they would pay. He came back to me saying that they won't and don't want to move on the current accepted offer.

He then said the insurance route might cause premiums to increase in the future or make it hard to get insurance. But surely the insurance method is the best for all. Any experience with this?

I am suspicious as to why they haven't got it fixed already. Maybe between the two leasehold owners and the freehold owner they can't agree to get the work done.

Should I be worried about this?

Cheers,

Matt

fart

Yeh it's a subsidence crack repair job. The work is spot on, standard practice.

HOWEVER, and this is very important, you HAVE to ensure that movement has ceased before having any work carried out.

This will involve putting what are sometimes called 'nipples' in the wall - hacking off the render either side of the crack, installing the nipples and then measuring the distance between them over a prolonged period of time, usually about 6 months. Only when it's certain that the movement has ceased should a crack repair be carried out.

If this hasn't been done, no insurance company will pay for it and only a fool would have work undertaken without it. If the movement hasn't stopped they can then look at discovering the problem and seeing if it's fixable (underpinning, removing large trees etc) before fixing the actual cracks on the building. If the movement hasn't stopped the work you'll be paying for will be pointless as it could well move even further and cause more hassle which will be more expensive to put right.

I'd run in the other direction if i were you.

If the above work has been carried out, then it's down to you to amend your offer accordingly or to get in touch with insurance to see if there's anything can be done after you've bought the property.

(**I used to be a builders labourer and have carried out maybe 15-20 crack repairs.)

DrRadar

The current owners did have a surveyor come to the property and place a "telltale" on the crack. I have an image but can't post the link as a new member. The estate agent said that this showed the the crack was no longer moving.

Also is that quote about the right amount you would expect?

So trusting that this is correct and the tests are showing there isn't movement then insurance should be a good way to go. But you say I should investigate the insurance, shouldn't I get the current owners to chase that up now and make a claim?

Cheers,

Matt

fart

DrRadar wrote: »

The current owners did have a surveyor come to the property and place a "telltale" on the crack. I have an image but can't post the link as a new member. The estate agent said that this showed the the crack was no longer moving.

Also is that quote about the right amount you would expect?

So trusting that this is correct and the tests are showing there isn't movement then insurance should be a good way to go. But you say I should investigate the insurance, shouldn't I get the current owners to chase that up now and make a claim?

Cheers,

Matt

Well it depends how big the crack is once it's exposed, and also depends how many there are etc, but i've seen prices quoted at much more than that for crack repairs.

The helix bars are very tough, heavy duty, and they're secured in place with epoxy resin which is like a liquid concrete, and they are VERY expensive, so just under £6k sounds reasonable to me.

As far as the insurance goes, i'm not sure they can be made to do anything. I'm not sure how flats operate though, as there could be a leasehold and a freehold. Someone else may be along to give better advice in that respect though

DrRadar

Looks like I need to get a definite confirmation there is no more movement. The quote for £6k is approx. right for the work.

I think regarding the insurance the current owners or freehold owner would have to claim. I couldn't get insurance with the problem after buying the property then claim on my insurance.

fart

DrRadar wrote: »

Looks like I need to get a definite confirmation there is no more movement. The quote for £6k is approx. right for the work.

I think regarding the insurance the current owners or freehold owner would have to claim. I couldn't get insurance with the problem after buying the property then claim on my insurance.

I think if it was me, i'd get estimates for having the work carried out myself, and then knock the price off for the offer on the place, if they weren't willing to do it.

However, it's weird that it's already been measured - this means that someone's decided to get it fixed. If there's no more movement someone could just be trying to get you to take on the bill. It would make no sense to have it measured if it was then not going to be repaired. I'd be sceptical if i were you!

Not sure whether it would be freeholder, leaseholder (people living there) or someone's insurance company who has decided it needs to be investigated but i'd be asking questions if i were you!

DrRadar

If I get more proof it isn't moving still I think getting some money off my asking price is a good way.

I'm unsure of the insurance route, but confused why someone wouldn't have already done that.

I'm sceptical as well. I need to find out when the measurement of the crack was completed. Estate agents are good at avoiding questions though!

Prothet_of_Doom

Rather than knock £6K off the offer, knock £18K becuase quite frankly they should be sorting it out if they want to sell it. When they refuse to reduce the price, walk away.

fart

DrRadar wrote: »

If I get more proof it isn't moving still I think getting some money off my asking price is a good way.

I'm unsure of the insurance route, but confused why someone wouldn't have already done that.

I'm sceptical as well. I need to find out when the measurement of the crack was completed. Estate agents are good at avoiding questions though!

That's the thing though - if someone's measured the cracks already, they've known it's an expensive job and just want to hope you'll deal with it.

Ask why they've been worried enough to have it investigated by a surveyor but then won't pay to have it fixed. If they won't budge on their price i'd just walk away to be honest, it could be a real hassle to sort out considering there is probably more than one set of residents, a freeholder and various insurance companies with vested interests in the building. It would be a simpler proposition if it were a freehold you were buying.

DrRadar

Thats pretty hard nose negotiating though. Its definitely a sellers market right now (I'm looking in the wimbledon area). They seem to initially be reluctant to knock anything off, but that was only proposed to them yesterday.

I might let them think and go back again saying how much the work will cost when I get my building survey results.

I do like the place and think if this problem isn't on going then after the one off repair the place will be great and I would have definitely added value to it.

Another point is if I do go down the route of paying myself, what about the ground floor flat. Do I ask them for a contribution?

DrRadar

Yes I agree that it may be complicated. The vendor clearly knows that the repair costs £5,750+VAT and he hasn't got the job done. Probably couldn't agree with other flat owner or the freehold owner. I think he was hoping for a quick sale and to avoid too many questions.

But even if I don't get much off the agree price and arrange repairs myself I believe the flat when fully repaired should be worth more than the spend on repairs. It is a risk, I will have a think.