Another shill bidder - do all sellers do this?!

emerald_starcat

Was watching an item and forgot to bid again to see it was relisted straight after it ended, check the bid history and this is what I get:

http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=400536508227&aid=g***8&eu=&bidtid=265955510027&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink

Am I the only seller that does not boost the bids on my items with another account? It's annoying ebay does nothing to stop it from happening.

George_Michael

I've just sent a message to the seller concerned to inform them of the report I have made to trading standards about their illegal activities.

It's so blatant that something need to be done, and hopefully they will have a few restless nights over it.

I'm pretty sure that this is their shill bidding partner.
http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/big8064

ebay don't care in the least as every instance of shill bidding means more revenue for them.

RFW

George_Michael wrote: »

ebay don't care in the least as every instance of shill bidding means more revenue for them.

I don't agree with that, presumably the above two posts are clear that shill bidding puts off buyers so loses Ebay revenue. Losing one customer costs Ebay far more than they gain in one lot of final value fees.
They do pull the accounts of shill bidders and pass on information to Trading Standards.
It isn't always that easy to be definite about, I've had genuine customers who only bid on my items and rarely on anyone else's, that could have looked like shill bidding.
As an auctioneer and regular attendee of auctions for many years, transparent shill bidding is not good for business. It does take place though and always will in auctions on and offline.

shaun_from_Africa

RFW wrote: »

They do pull the accounts of shill bidders and pass on information to Trading Standards..

I have reported a fair number of shill bidders over the years, and I would estimate that less than 10% of the seller concerned have been kicked off ebay.
The accounts used for the shill bidding usually get removed but not the sellers themselves.

Losing one customer costs Ebay far more than they gain in one lot of final value fees.

BUt it's not just final value fees.
Take the example given bt the OP. The seller lists items (one set of listing fees), often won by the shiller (one set of final value fees), then the goods are relisted (another set of listing fees) and if sold, even more final value fees.

It isn't always that easy to be definite about

But it some cases it is so obvious that it's laughable.
Back to the case in question. In the pasty month, the bidder in question has placed 97 bids on 31 items, winning many of them and then the "won" items being relisted almost immediately.

RFW

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

BUt it's not just final value fees.
Take the example given bt the OP. The seller lists items (one set of listing fees), often won by the shiller (one set of final value fees), then the goods are relisted (another set of listing fees) and if sold, even more final value fees.

Still not worth it to them. They spend way more on retaining customers than that would cost them. I won't argue that they don't do enough, it's more likely a case of their incompetence rather than a sinister ploy to squeeze extra pennies out.
It is also, largely, a victimless crime so lower down on priorities as far as policing goes. No seller will be forcing a buyer to pay more and a lot of the time the seller ends up paying for the privilege.

porto_bello

RFW wrote: »

Still not worth it to them. They spend way more on retaining customers than that would cost them. I won't argue that they don't do enough, it's more likely a case of their incompetence rather than a sinister ploy to squeeze extra pennies out.
It is also, largely, a victimless crime so lower down on priorities as far as policing goes. No seller will be forcing a buyer to pay more and a lot of the time the seller ends up paying for the privilege.

I find this post rather shocking. I feel it needs to be highlighted that shill bidding is unequivocally illegal under UK law (and generally at least, everywhere else where eBay operates).

There is no room to reinterpret it as harmless or justifiable because the victim was unaware they had been scammed until later. Indeed, any successful fraud works because the victim was unaware at the time they were scammed.

With regard to eBay, I have been really shocked by the way cases of obvious shill bidding I have reported has been dismissed or excused. Overtly clear shill bidding sellers are still shill bidding years after they were first reported.

Clearly eBay doesn't do anything like enough to combat shill bidding because there is a clear financial incentive not to. However, Trading Standards do take a keen interest if all the proof is amassed for and reported to them.

RFW

porto_bello wrote: »

I find this post rather shocking. I feel it needs to be highlighted that shill bidding is unequivocally illegal under UK law (and generally at least, everywhere else where eBay operates).

Sorry I shocked you. I am aware of the law. I doubt any auctioneer in the country has ever been found guilty of it and they largely still do it on a regular basis. Of the many hundreds of auctions I've attended I only know of one that doesn't take false bids.
The only conviction on Ebay (as far as I know) was one person who was guilty of many offences and that seemed the easiest one for them to get a conviction (a bit like Al Capone being caught for tax evasion).
This is very low on the fraud scale, there are far worse fraud crimes that need to be looked at. On the majority of occasions with shill bidding either an item doesn't sell or it sells at a realistic price and the buyer is happy with it. It isn't right and may not often be fair but it certainly isn't the heinous crime you're portraying it as.

porto_bello

RFW wrote: »

Sorry I shocked you. I am aware of the law. I doubt any auctioneer in the country has ever been found guilty of it and they largely still do it on a regular basis. Of the many hundreds of auctions I've attended I only know of one that doesn't take false bids.
The only conviction on Ebay (as far as I know) was one person who was guilty of many offences and that seemed the easiest one for them to get a conviction (a bit like Al Capone being caught for tax evasion).
This is very low on the fraud scale, there are far worse fraud crimes that need to be looked at. On the majority of occasions with shill bidding either an item doesn't sell or it sells at a realistic price and the buyer is happy with it. It isn't right and may not often be fair but it certainly isn't the heinous crime you're portraying it as.

This isn't something that can be justified by something else that is worse or because someone else is doing it more frequently or because the chances of being prosecuted are currently deemed to be low. It is illegal and unacceptable conduct for any eBay seller, regardless of size.

It isn't made any more acceptable or less illegal because some/most professional auctioneers allegedly routinely do it in their own marketplace (where there are fewer/no tell-tale electronic records).

Enforcing the law upon some of the more renowned, long-term shill bidders will, I suspect, provoke a widespread change in attitude. Hopefully that change is coming soon. As things stand, whilst shill bidding is widespread on eBay, it seriously undermines buyer confidence in the company's integrity - making everyone a loser.

RFW

porto_bello wrote: »

This isn't something that can be justified by something else that is worse or because someone else is doing it more frequently or because the chances of being prosecuted are currently deemed to be low. It is illegal and unacceptable conduct for any eBay seller, regardless of size.

It isn't made any more acceptable or less illegal because some/most professional auctioneers allegedly routinely do it in their own marketplace (where there are fewer/no tell-tale electronic records).

Enforcing the law upon some of the more renowned, long-term shill bidders will, I suspect, provoke a widespread change in attitude. Hopefully that change is coming soon. As things stand, whilst shill bidding is widespread on eBay, it seriously undermines buyer confidence in the company's integrity - making everyone a loser.

You seem to be saying that because it is illegal it is as bad as other fraud perpetrated on Ebay, it isn't. Often shill bidding has no victim at all.
If the seller bids on their own items and never sells anything because they keep buying them themselves on another id, do you want to throw them in jail or have them fined thousands? Does that type of shill bidder really need prosecuting? Do Ebay, Trading Standards and even the Police need to waste their time on an idiot who is wasting their own money?

George_Michael

do you want to throw them in jail or have them fined thousands? Does that
type of shill bidder really need prosecuting? Do Ebay, Trading Standards and
even the Police need to waste their time on an idiot who is wasting their own
money?

So someone is breaking the law and attempting to defraud anpther ebay member (and that is exactly what they are trying to do), you think that simply because their attempt failed, they should be ignored?

How about someone who plans to break into another persons house, but through their own stupidity, the attempt fails.
Should the police also ignore them?

What is so hard to understand.
Shill bidding is an attempt to defraud and is illegal in the UK. Why should it be ignored simply because the fraudulent activity failed to make money for the fraudster?

theonlywayisup

George_Michael wrote: »

What is so hard to understand.
Shill bidding is an attempt to defraud and is illegal in the UK. Why should it be ignored simply because the fraudulent activity failed to make money for the fraudster?

Because in the grand scale of crimes there is much more going on in the world and like all things, there are those that take priority and those that don't.

Just because it is unlawful it doesn't mean it will be policed or investigated.