Debit Card Fraud

STomlinson

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

OP you seem to be overlooking your own responsibility in the matter.

You leave your pin number and bank card lying around your house where a random visitor can easily find both and pick them up, and you expect the bank to compensate you?

I guess my point is that I really don't understand what's happened. It was a card that I rarely used and only went to check for it on Saturday as I was expecting a new PIN to arrive.

The bank only asked questions that seemed to be aimed at me admitting gross negligence. If I'd know where I'd left my card or at what point it went, then I would either have not lost it or would know who stole it. They asked what I usually do with my PIN - usually I remember it but I hadn't received my new one.

I've been with Lloyds for over a decade and I've stumped up for bank charges at times when I've gone overdrawn. My question is that, based on what's happened, do the Payment Regulations 1999 mean the bank has to offer an immediate refund and assist in the investigation?

vuvuzela

STomlinson wrote: »

I guess my point is that I really don't understand what's happened. It was a card that I rarely used and only went to check for it on Saturday as I was expecting a new PIN to arrive.

The bank only asked questions that seemed to be aimed at me admitting gross negligence. If I'd know where I'd left my card or at what point it went, then I would either have not lost it or would know who stole it. They asked what I usually do with my PIN - usually I remember it but I hadn't received my new one.

I've been with Lloyds for over a decade and I've stumped up for bank charges at times when I've gone overdrawn. My question is that, based on what's happened, do the Payment Regulations 1999 mean the bank has to offer an immediate refund and assist in the investigation?

Can you quote the exact bit of the regulations and a link to them so people can see what you mean ? My initial suspicion is that the bank do not have to immediately refund the money, but I'm not up to speed on banking regulations.

STomlinson

Here's the link:

www .legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/209/regulation/61/made

Sections 55, 59 and 60 all relevant, too.

visidigi

STomlinson wrote: »

I guess my point is that I really don't understand what's happened. It was a card that I rarely used and only went to check for it on Saturday as I was expecting a new PIN to arrive.

The bank only asked questions that seemed to be aimed at me admitting gross negligence. If I'd know where I'd left my card or at what point it went, then I would either have not lost it or would know who stole it. They asked what I usually do with my PIN - usually I remember it but I hadn't received my new one.

I've been with Lloyds for over a decade and I've stumped up for bank charges at times when I've gone overdrawn. My question is that, based on what's happened, do the Payment Regulations 1999 mean the bank has to offer an immediate refund and assist in the investigation?

So to clarify, you asked for a new pin for a card you didn't even know was missing? Or are you saying between requesting the pin and the 'fraud' your card was also stolen/lost?

STomlinson

visidigi wrote: »

So to clarify, you asked for a new pin for a card you didn't even know was missing? Or are you saying between requesting the pin and the 'fraud' your card was also stolen/lost?

Ordered the PIN on the 21 July and had the card to hand - PIN hadn't arrived by 28 July so rang bank to query and they informed me card had been used for just under £1,000 of transactions, including ATM withdrawals.

jacques_chirac

I would suggest that, on the balance of probabilities, they have established negligence - the likelihood of some stranger stealing the letter with the pin and then stealing your card from within your property are minimal.

I would agree with the others - this has been done by someone you know.

visidigi

so the card was to hand in your home? in the pub? where??

I can see why the bank is blaming you, its pretty hard to get the full story here - see it from their point of view - you have the card, you ask for a pin, a week later £1,000 is spent and you claim you know nothing about it.

Where were the transactions? All online? in person? where?

STomlinson

visidigi wrote: »

so the card was to hand in your home? in the pub? where??

I can see why the bank is blaming you, its pretty hard to get the full story here - see it from their point of view - you have the card, you ask for a pin, a week later £1,000 is spent and you claim you know nothing about it.

Where were the transactions? All online? in person? where?

Still waiting for all the transactions to come through - some are still pending on internet banking so having to wait for them to come onto my statement.

It may well have been done by someone I know - I'm not disputing that. I just need the bank to help investigate it along with the police so it can be resolved.

I understand that, to the bank, it's not a clear case but I didn't authorise these transactions, my card hadn't been used in over a year and £1,000 worth of transactions all happened within 24 hours - I'm unsure why they were allowed to go through to begin with. On my other account, the fraud block comes up if I order a TV from Amazon.

Consent and withdrawal of consent

55.—(1) A payment transaction is to be regarded as having been authorised by the payer for the purposes of this Part only if the payer has given its consent to—

(a)the execution of the payment transaction; or
(b)the execution of a series of payment transactions of which that payment transaction forms part.
(2) Such consent—

(a)may be given before or, if agreed between the payer and its payment service provider, after the execution of the payment transaction; and
(b)must be given in the form, and in accordance with the procedure, agreed between the payer and its payment service provider.
(3) The payer may withdraw its consent to a payment transaction at any time before the point at which the payment order can no longer be revoked under regulation 67.

(4) Subject to regulation 67(3) to (5), the payer may withdraw its consent to the execution of a series of payment transactions at any time with the effect that any future payment transactions are not regarded as authorised for the purposes of this Part.

I didn't authorise the payments to leave my account, and have stated this clearly to the bank.

58.—(1) A payment service provider issuing a payment instrument must—

(a)subject to regulation 57, ensure that the personalised security features of the payment instrument are not accessible to persons other than the payment service user to whom the payment instrument has been issued;
(b)not send an unsolicited payment instrument, except where a payment instrument already issued to a payment service user is to be replaced;
(c)ensure that appropriate means are available at all times to enable the payment service user to notify the payment service provider in accordance with regulation 57(1)(b) or to request that the use of the payment instrument is no longer stopped in accordance with regulation 56(6);
(d)on request, provide the payment service user at any time during a period of 18 months after the alleged date of notification under regulation 57(1)(b) with the means to prove that such notification to the payment service provider was made;
(e)prevent any use of the payment instrument once notification has been made under regulation 57(1)(b).
(2) The payment service provider bears the risk of sending a payment instrument or any of its personalised security features to the payment service user.

Note part 2, which clearly states that it is the banks responsibility that the PIN is delivered to me, and they hold the risk.

(3) Where a payment service user denies having authorised an executed payment transaction, the use of a payment instrument recorded by the payment service provider is not in itself necessarily sufficient to prove either that—

(a)the payment transaction was authorised by the payer; or
(b)the payer acted fraudulently or failed with intent or gross negligence to comply with regulation 57.

Use of the PIN is not sufficient evidence that it was authorised by myself

61. Subject to regulations 59 and 60, where an executed payment transaction was not authorised in accordance with regulation 55, the payment service provider must immediately—

(a)refund the amount of the unauthorised payment transaction to the payer; and
(b)where applicable, restore the debited payment account to the state it would have been in had the unauthorised payment transaction not taken place.

From my understanding, I should get an immediate refund whilst investigations take place

Battleaxe44

Having been a victim of ID Theft and fraud back in 2005. the bank tried to deny all responsibility, as this involved our current account and debit card, joint account. It was only discovered by us when I tried to pay for my grocies using the card and it was declined. I got home rang the bank to be told the account was now overdrawn and charges accumulating. they tried to say it was someone in the house. Ansolutely staggered at the bank's reaction, so being me, I got in the car and went into the branch and demanded to see the transactions on their screen. Well hello, phone calls to Romania using 192.com, purchases using phone and in store with Argos, Currys and a couple of other places, cash withdrawals, all going on over a couple of weeks and nothing to falg up this was unusual behaviour, in all we lost over £10,000 in this time..when I threatened to call the police in, the bank went into overdrive but I had to prove we had not made these transactions, in the meantine our DD's failed and a domino effect started.

After investigation, the bank wont admit it, but they knew who perpetrated the fraud (credit obtained and CRA files trashed) and the police were reluctant to intervene as it was civil matter. I got some of the money refunded back to the account, this took over 12 months and I am still living with the aftermath of the devastation this person caused. I am still fighting a couple of DCA's over supposed debts, so I give the crime number and tell them to get on their bikes and take me to court. A couple of the so called debts are now SB, but they still write trying to collect.I am not worried about ny credit files any longer as I managed to live ,even though credit reputation trashed. I changed banks, have a basic account and have two pre-paid credit cards for when I go overseas.

I paid what I owed lawfully (my debts) but I refused to pay the charges that accrued during this fiasco and I refused to pay any debt that was not mine. nI am not naming the bank, but from what we have learnt, the bank did not want it known they knew the perpetrator. If I hadn't insisted that they are not always right and could prove it was not my OH or me. No-one else had access to our house and it wasn't the cats.

OP You wont get the bank to make refund while the investigation is going on and it will be a struggle until it is discovered who did enjoy your money. you do have to keep on at the police and keep making yourself unpopular with the bank.

If anyone wants to know the finer details feel free to PM me. There is a lot I cannot say on an open forum, but just be careful before laying the blame on a household member. it reads like it is a co-incindence new pin and card going missing.

The other thing I have is two accounts and I split money between the two, so if this ever happens to me again, I have my bills covered in the other account. i do not have any DD's now. The guarantee as far as I am concerened is not worth the paper it is written on. You are guilty until you prove your innocence.
I have it on my files with the bank if anyone tries to put a DD on either of my accounts they are not to accept it, if they do, I will take action against the bank for allowing it.

OP, keep digging and let it be known to all who have access to your house that the police and the bank are investigating this matter. if it was someone in the house, just lay it on what the consequences are of the money going missing and how it is going to affect their lifestyle in the short term.

Is it possible to get an advance from youremployer, if you are employed ( I am making an asumption)?

jacques_chirac

The bank has investigated, and made a decision on the balance of probabilities - what else do you want them to do to investigate?

What have you done to investigate?