Benefit fraud court appearance as witness

wafflefaffle

Hi!

I'm looking for a bit of sound advice please!

A few years ago i moved into my ex-partners place. We split the rent and bills etc. Little did I know that he was claiming job seekers allowance for himself as well as housing benefit and council benefit (i worked full time and didn't declare me moving in). When the relationship ended I was the one that stayed on in the property and he moved out as he, at the point, wasn't working and couldn't afford it. Upon this, I changed everything into my name (bills, council tax, rent etc) When I changed over the council tax I called the council and told them I was taking over the lease. It was upon a telephone call to the lady there that I uncovered what he'd done and inadvertently grassed him in.

They then began to investigate him and of course helped them as much as I could! I also gave a signed statement detailing when i moved in, what our relationship was like, dates etc. I made it clear I would help them if I didn't have to go to court to give evidence as I have quite the nervous imposition when speaking in public! I'd completely forgotten about it but received an informal email today from the guy at the council who was investigating and told me that it had gone to court today, he pleaded not guilty and that we were never a couple nor lived together. It seems absurd that he's trying to get away with it as it's literally 2 years of history that he thinks he can erase me from. I ran my business from the premises, had bank statements and bills there, paid some of the utility bills myself,... how can he possibly think he can get out of that one?? I honestly just assumed he would plead guilty and take the wrapping on the knuckles.

Anyway, this email states:
" ?????? appeared in court today and pleaded not guilty to ‘living with you as his partner’. A date has been set for his trial on 12/9/13. His defence solicitor has requested that you, along with other officers from the Council and the DWP attend court to give evidence. As you are a prosecution witness in this case, you are required to go to orally confirm things that you said in your statements. Can you call me please to chat about it"

I really don't want to go! and I can't stress enough. Right now me and my partner are going through IVF which is a stressful enough situation as it is. The Court Date will be around of just after our treatment. It may even by possible that I could be in the early stages of pregnancy. I've suffered from severe anxiety years ago and just at the thought of this is starting to make me feel it all over again.

On one hand I don't want him to get away with it but I'm sure they have enough evidence to throw at him anyway without me going in to confirm things. Is there anyway I can avoid court or do you think that the informal email off the council official was just to scare me into going and it's not compulsory at this stage for me to attend? Anyway I can get out of this?

Thanks!
Katy

NYM

The only advice I can give you is to call them. Explain the anxiety this is causing you and that you would prefer not to attend Court in person.

They can use the information you've supplied supported by documentation in their exchange of witness evidence. You never know, faced with the proof that you did indeed co-habit whilst they were claiming, may be enough to elicit a guilty plea.


Have a read of CPR Part 32 to familiarise yourself with procedures.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part32


I have to say that it's strange the Council told you the previous Lease holder (your ex ) had been claiming any benefits.

wafflefaffle

Hi, and thanks so much! Well they never actually told me as such... as I said, it was inadvertently. I rang up and said that my partner is now moving out and I'd like to take over all the bill paying upon which she said "partner.... oh? apparantly he lived there alone the past 2 years. Can you confirm this?" A council worker then turned up the day after and told me everything and asked me to help them.

I'll certainly look into your information thanks.

By the looks of the email I received it is not prosecution that is calling me but his defence which only leads me to believe that either a) they are hoping i will cave from nerves and withdraw my statement or b) they are hoping to trip me up in court and make my statement appear weak.

With the amount of evidence and other witness statements i think that they are grasping at straws by calling me in.

rogerblack

wafflefaffle wrote: »

With the amount of evidence and other witness statements i think that they are grasping at straws by calling me in.

What was your relationship - were you involved in a romantic relationship - or was it just living together?

You can live with someone, even if you share all bills/... - if you do not have some form of relationship that goes beyond this.
Expectation of sexual fidelity, public acknowledgement,... count.

You are only 'living together as husband and wife (or civil partners)' - if this is true, otherwise the other person is not legally part of your household.

wafflefaffle

Hi there,

It was a proper romantic and sexual relationship like any other couple. Shared a bed etc. I gave them emails between us to prove this (not going into any details!) :A

RAS

He's hoping you will cave in.

I suspect that if you turn up he will plead guilty pronto. Otherwise his esentence will be increased by half (or not reduced by one third).

wafflefaffle

Actually, with you saying that roger I think that maybe his defence. To say that we weren't actually a 'couple'. I remember the council official telling me once that that was an excuse he gave to them at the start. There's too much evidence against this anyway, like i said, intimate and loving notes and emails from him, other witness and neighbour witness statements showing us together as a couple in that time period he is denying.

wafflefaffle

RAS wrote: »

He's hoping you will cave in.

I suspect that if you turn up he will plead guilty pronto. Otherwise his esentence will be increased by half (or not reduced by one third).

Well, I wont be caving in as nervous as I am. I will try to get out of giving evidence in court on grounds of medical depending upon my pregnancy status but if that fails I won't be retracting my statement out of pride!

tonycottee

Although its not a particularly pleasant experience, it's nothing like on the TV. Generally, there will only be a few people in the court room itself, and it would be extremely unlikely that any members of the public will be watching.
The prosecution would brief you 1st, so you would know more or less what to expect. And if you do decide to go, I would suggest popping down to your local court for a few hours just to get a feel for things.
I imagine your ex knows that you would hate that kind of thing and that is why he had pleaded not guilty - it gives him another chance to cause you more grief. I think you should use that to give you the extra courage to go.

NYM

wafflefaffle wrote: »

Hi, and thanks so much! Well they never actually told me as such... as I said, it was inadvertently. I rang up and said that my partner is now moving out and I'd like to take over all the bill paying upon which she said "partner.... oh? apparantly he lived there alone the past 2 years. Can you confirm this?" A council worker then turned up the day after and told me everything and asked me to help them.

I'll certainly look into your information thanks.

By the looks of the email I received it is not prosecution that is calling me but his defence which only leads me to believe that either a) they are hoping i will cave from nerves and withdraw my statement or b) they are hoping to trip me up in court and make my statement appear weak.

With the amount of evidence and other witness statements i think that they are grasping at straws by calling me in.

I'm still confused, why would his defence call you to give evidence that actually proves his fraudulent activity ?

Anything that is to be relied on in Court can be used by both sides. You'd be aiding the case for the Council.

The Defence are not grasping at straws...they're annihilating his case if they call you.

ceecee1

I work as a fraud investigator and have found over the years that many people plead not guilty on the advice of their solicitor. It seems as if their legal advisers wait until the last minute to make sure that all the witnesses turn up and that the case can go ahead.

Its interesting that the prosecution haven't called you - that suggests to me that they have more than enough evidence without you. His defence have the right to call you if they dispute your evidence (more often than not if they accept as correct your witness statement you are not called).

Even though I have worked in this job for years I have only ever given evidence in Crown Court once and it wasn't anything like as bad as I thought it would be. They don't hassle you like they do on the telly - ask normal questions and you just answer the truth. As long as you tell the truth you cant be tripped up - and I bet that at the end of the day he is just waiting to see if you turn up.
He will lose any credit for an early plea if he doesn't. Don't worry about it - its not worth getting wound up about it - forget about it and face it on the day if you have to.
Speak to the investigator, they will look after you