UK needs +7 Million immigrants to keep debt down

Graham_Devon

N1AK wrote: »

By using immigration to bring in additional workforce over the next, for example, 20 years we can stop the current pension pyramid from collapsing while changing the structure so that people retiring in 20 years have paid enough in before retiring that it is no longer a pyramid. Thus an immigrant who comes here are 30 would during his 38 years working pay in enough to cover his own pension and some extra that helps keep current pensioners reliant on the current pension pyramid out of poverlt.

And do you feel there is scope for an everyday joe working an everyday joe job to be earning enough to pay for increasing housing costs, increasing living costs AND provide his own pension?

I certainly don't mind people having to put more towards their own pensions and feel it's a good idea. But if we are actively pumping up the price of living while keeping wages low I don't know hwo it can be achieved.

Over 50% of the country are now on benefit top ups as they cannot afford the cost of living. That needs to be looked at before we can assume we can all just put more away for a pension while paying increased costs everywhere else.

Reduce the cost of living (which we can easily achieve with some pain) and people will have more to save. Until we do that, peoples income will simply go on day to day living and the trend of increasing reliance on in work benefits will increase as it has been doing over the past decade.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

N1AK wrote: »

By using immigration to bring in additional workforce over the next, for example, 20 years we can stop the current pension pyramid from collapsing while changing the structure so that people retiring in 20 years have paid enough in before retiring that it is no longer a pyramid. .

More like 50 years, but other than that, not too bad an effort.

Graham_Devon

Well, you nearly got a gold star NIAK

Cornucopia

I don't think people really understand what a pyramid scheme is.

It is a scheme which can only survive by adding more and more members' contributions to support it, and consequently is doomed to fail as the pool of potential new members becomes exhausted.

Therefore neither UK housing or UK pensions are pyramid schemes - they have the potential for equilibrium irrespective of new "joiners".

Cornucopia

Graham_Devon wrote: »

And do you feel there is scope for an everyday joe working an everyday joe job to be earning enough to pay for increasing housing costs, increasing living costs AND provide his own pension?

I think one of the issues that comes across from your posts is that you are inclined to draw (typically negative) conclusions about the whole population from reports/data/experience regarding just a sub-set.

Many, many people contribute to their own pensions. Typically they are a small proportion of income, and therefore easily assimilated into people's budgets.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Cornucopia wrote: »

Therefore neither UK housing or UK pensions are pyramid schemes - they have the potential for equilibrium irrespective of new "joiners".

Indeed.....

N1AK

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Reduce the cost of living (which we can easily achieve with some pain) and people will have more to save. Until we do that, peoples income will simply go on day to day living and the trend of increasing reliance on in work benefits will increase as it has been doing over the past decade.

I'm not really sure what your point is. I didn't defend the policy, just explained the logic behind it and one way in which immigration can be used to decrease or remove the 'pension pyramid'.

You're making various points about people not being able to afford their own pensions; which if true means we're up the creek regardless of immigration because they certainly can't afford their own pensions plus paying for the currently retired!

Reducing the cost of living sounds awfully nice, but it's even more vague! Food doesn't simply get cheaper because we want it to. Unless we're going to cut government spending further and cut personal spending considerably then the cost of living isn't going to drop. And the point still has nothing to do with immigration

N1AK

Cornucopia wrote: »

I don't think people really understand what a pyramid scheme is.

Therefore neither UK housing or UK pensions are pyramid schemes - they have the potential for equilibrium irrespective of new "joiners".

You might not understand what one is but don't be so quick to assume others don't

The current state pension is a pyramid scheme. If the terms of the pension don't change and no one new paid in the equivalent of the current amount needed to fund pensions then the government would be unable to fund pensions without massive tax increases or cuts in other areas.

The issue with saying it isn't a pyramid scheme because the terms can be changed etc is that in theory there would be no pyramid schemes by that definition.

Cornucopia

Not really.

I suppose there could be accidental pyramid schemes out there in the wild. But in practice, most are designed.

The UK pension scheme is not a pyramid scheme for the following reasons:-

- It is not designed as such.
- It can be brought to equilibrium by the Government, as you say.
- Even if left as is, it does not require an excess of new members over old in order to continue (equal contributions are all that is required).
- It is not doomed to fail.

OffGridLiving

Graham_Devon wrote: »

And all those we usher into the country will require pensions too...

It's a pyramid scheme, nothing more, nothing less.

The only way to get out of this is to encourage people to sort out their own pensions and pay a state pension that is basically minimum wage and to use a 'guest worker' scheme where economic migrants can work here and pay income tax but a lower level of national insurance and no citizenship entitlement. They will be entitled to NHS, etc. as they pay tax but won't qualify for a state pension. Once they finish work, they return to their original country.

Everyone's a winner.