The Mobile Outlet

Shelby

Castillo,

You have no way of proving legally that the T&Cs posted on the Wayback site are correct.

Moreover, they certainly don't show the actual dates on which The Mobile Outlet's various successive T&Cs changed.

rose28454

Thanks to all for your great help. I will compose a letter tonight and post it here tommorow before I send it. Shelby re my son and the money you are quite right and I will arrange that for him. I have been into his bank this morning to argue about a £35.00 fee they are going to charge him for a returned DD for £18.00 to his credit card ( of the same bank! ). I will post the full story of that on the banking thread for some input.

chapeau

The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 cited above by James (he concentrated on regulation 7) has other interesting pieces that you might want to point out to them.

regulation 5 (1) says

A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer.

which essentially means their T&C are only as good as a judge says they are.

Schedule 2 of the regulation gives some ideas of what might be unfair, and The Mobile Outlet's T&Cs fall foul of more than one.

For example

(c) making an agreement binding on the consumer whereas provision of services by the seller or supplier is subject to a condition whose realisation depends on his own will alone;

It could be argued that your submission was received late because they changed their address without telling you. So as you have no control over them changing their address, their term is unfair and illegal.

Also,

(n) limiting the seller's or supplier's obligation to respect commitments undertaken by his agents or making his commitments subject to compliance with a particular formality;

might be relevant. You were one day late and you lost the lot. Well, if that isn't a trivial matter I don't know what is. Almost certainly unfair, and so illegal. 21 days is unreasonable anyway, OFCOM recently came out with a code of practice that required 60 days for you to send your invoices in. Unfortunately it isn't binding on resellers, only the service providers themselves.

Make sure you keep sending in all claims on time, document everything, take copies of everything, send special delivery. Let them know in a formal way that their terms are in breach of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. If they are over 28 days late in paying a cashback then hit them with a letter on day 29 saying they have 14 days to pay or you sue. After all, if you are not allowed to be late, then neither are they. And guess what, that's in the Unfair terms in Consumer Contracts regulations too

(o) obliging the consumer to fulfil all his obligations where the seller or supplier does not perform his;

superdon

Hi All,

Just need some help on a new contract we took out in August, on 12 months free with tmobile. We had two other contracts that ran out in August, and most payments have been made (just chasing a couple).

Anyways, I just want to see which bills I need to be sending for this new contract.

My terms and conditions state...

11.2 If you have a 12 month contract in order to claim your Line Rental Entitlement (Cashback) you are required to do the following:
On Instalment Date 1 (120 days from and including the date of connection) send to us the Cashback Redemption Voucher Numbered 1 with a bill showing that you have been connected for a minimum of 120 days.
On Instalment Date 2 (210 days from and including the date of connection). Send to us the Cashback Redemption Voucher Numbered 2 with a bill showing that you have been connected for a minimum of 210 days.
On Instalment Date 3 (270 days from and including the date of connection). Send to us the Cashback Redemption Voucher Numbered 3 with a bill showing that you have been connected for a minimum of 270 days.
On Instalment Date 4 (330 days from and including the date of connection). Send to us the Cashback Redemption Voucher Numbered 4 with a bill showing that you have been connected for a minimum of 330 days.
On Instalment Date 5 (360 days from and including the date of connection). Send to us the Cashback Redemption Voucher Numbered 5 with a bill showing that you have been connected for a minimum of 360 days.

I signed up on August 8th 2007. My first bill from TMobile has a bill date of August 11 2007 and I also have bills dated September 11 2007 and October 11 2007.

So, to fit in with these new terms, which bills do I need to send and when?

Any help would be appreciated.

Shelby

Here we go, Saint and Quentin, roll up your sleeves - the dam’s just burst…

superdon wrote: »

Hi All,

Just need some help on a new contract we took out in August, on 12 months free with tmobile. We had two other contracts that ran out in August, and most payments have been made (just chasing a couple).

Anyways, I just want to see which bills I need to be sending for this new contract.

My terms and conditions state...



I signed up on August 8th 2007. My first bill from TMobile has a bill date of August 11 2007 and I also have bills dated September 11 2007 and October 11 2007.

So, to fit in with these new terms, which bills do I need to send and when?

Any help would be appreciated.

Superdon,

You're going to need a lot of help. And so is everybody else on these new contracts. But at least you've started thinking about it in good time.

By my reckoning, 120 days (inclusive) from 8 August 2007 is on Wednesday, 5 December.

In order for anyone to assist you, you first need to furnish us with the following information:

1. Do you have a copy of the T&Cs that were in force on 8 August 2007?

2. If so, what is written in Section 11.4.2 of these?

3. For the purposes of this contract, on what date were you connected to T-Mobile?

(This date should appear on your first invoice from T-Mobile: it is the date your line rental began. This is not necessarily the same date - 8 August 2007 - as your contract with Mobile Matters U.K. Ltd. began.)

4. What is actually written on the “Cashback Redemption Voucher” for your first claim?

5. What is your own understanding of the words “a bill showing that you have been connected for a minimum of 120 days”?

(I have yet to see any single mobile ‘phone bill that, in itself, shows a period of connection of more than 62 days at most.

Your initial bill will show the date you were first connected. Your fourth bill will show that you were connected for a period of time - between 28 and 31 days - at some stage subsequent to then but it will not show the date upon which you were first connected.

So, what single bill - and it does say “bill”, not “bills” - are you proposing to send in “showing that you have been connected for a minimum of 120 days"?)

I have, incidentally, asked that question on here four times, myself, but nobody has yet answered it!

superdon

1. Do you have a copy of the T&Cs that were in force on 8 August 2007?
Yes

2. If so, what is written in Section 11.4.2 of these?
11.4.2 claim each instalment of the Line Rental Entitlement (Cashback) Claim within 30 days of the relevant Instalment Date. If your claim is received outside this 30 day period, your cash back entitlement will be void.

3. For the purposes of this contract, on what date were you connected to T-Mobile?
11th August


4. What is actually written on the “Cashback Redemption Voucher” for your first claim?
My Order Number, instalment number, voucher ID, name and cashback address. No dates or anything like that.

5. What is your own understanding of the words “a bill showing that you have been connected for a minimum of 120 days”?
A bill showing I was connected after 120 days of Aug 11th. So 9th Dec? Which would be my Bill date 11th November? But I would have to send after 9th Dec?

Jinner

TMO have rejected my final cashback claim because I sent the 11th & 12th bills together. The same happened for my wife's claim.

Like others I believe their terms fail to meet Regulation 7 of the The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. I have written to them, received an unsatisfactory response and sent a letter before action. I am about to start a claim via moneyclaim.gov.uk

Can we claim both cashbacks in a single claim as the circumstances are identical? If so do I claim as an individual or an organisation on moeyclaim.gov.uk?

Thanks

Quentin

Unless you bought these for a business (either as a partnership/sole traders/ltd company), then you are two individuals.

As individuals you need to claim individually.

chapeau

superdon wrote: »

I signed up on August 8th 2007. My first bill from TMobile has a bill date of August 11 2007 and I also have bills dated September 11 2007 and October 11 2007.

So, to fit in with these new terms, which bills do I need to send and when?

Any help would be appreciated.

Paras 11.0 and 11.4.2 as you quoted are contradictory. One says you need to send the claim in on the Installment date, the other that it has to be received within 30 days of the Installment Date. Unless they are giving the post office 30 days to deliver it, of course...... Regulation 7.2 will mean you have 30 days from the installment date, as that is more favourable to you.

As written and intepreted more favourably, you need to send them your first invoice in dated after 5th December (think that is 11th December), and it has to reach them by Friday 4th Jan 2008 (hope my maths is correct).

However, This is probably an unfair term for several reasons. Firstly, 30 days is unreasonably short. Secondly, it doesn't take any account of when the mobile phone company issues your bill, only when they started your account up. So it will be thrown out by the judge if they use it against you anyway. Probably.

If you live near your local county court you should pop in and see them instead of using moneyclaim.gov. They are very friendly and helpful with filling in the forms, they just won't tell you what argument to use. It's only a fiver more than using the web, and well worth the advice you will receive.

Shelby

superdon wrote: »

1. Do you have a copy of the T&Cs that were in force on 8 August 2007?
Yes

2. If so, what is written in Section 11.4.2 of these?
11.4.2 claim each instalment of the Line Rental Entitlement (Cashback) Claim within 30 days of the relevant Instalment Date. If your claim is received outside this 30 day period, your cash back entitlement will be void.

3. For the purposes of this contract, on what date were you connected to T-Mobile?
11th August


4. What is actually written on the “Cashback Redemption Voucher” for your first claim?
My Order Number, instalment number, voucher ID, name and cashback address. No dates or anything like that.

5. What is your own understanding of the words “a bill showing that you have been connected for a minimum of 120 days”?
A bill showing I was connected after 120 days of Aug 11th. So 9th Dec? Which would be my Bill date 11th November? But I would have to send after 9th Dec?

Superdon,

Thank you for posting the answers to what I asked you so quickly and so clearly. :T

This, however, is where it now all starts to get horribly complicated. :eek:

Here are the problems.

1. Sections 11.1 and 11.2 of your contract and Section 11.4.2 of your contract appear to contradict each other.

Section 11.1 reads, unequivocally, “Simply (!) send each voucher in numbered sequence order on each Instalment Date and send it to us with a bill evidencing that you have been connected for the periods set out in clause 11.2"

Section 11.2 reads, unequivocally, “On Instalment date 1,” (which we have established to be 5 December, in your case), “send to us the Cashback Redemption Voucher Numbered 1 with a bill showing that you have been connected for a minimum of 120 days.”

This doesn’t allow you any other date upon which to perform that action: it specifies that you have to do it “on instalment date 1”. If you do it on any other date, you breach the contract (and, supposedly, lose the whole of your cashback entitilement).

Section 11.4.2 then apparently contradicts that specific requirement. It states (in conjuction with Section 11.4), “In order to claim your Line Rental Entitlement (Cashback) you are required to...claim each instalment of the Line Rental Entitlement (Cashback) Claim within 30 days of the relevant Instalment Date. If your claim is received outside this 30 day period, your cash back entitlement will be void.”

2. Note that the requirement is to send in a bill showing that you have been connected for a minimum of 120 days. So, a bill that invoices you in advance for line rental for any of that period does not show that you have in fact been connected during that period. You have to wait for a bill that shows that you (for example) made calls on the 120th day.

3. (And here is the point that you seem to be missing) You write that your own understanding of the words “a bill showing that you have been connected for a minimum of 120 days" is “A bill showing I was connected after 120 days of Aug 11th.” That is incorrect. These two aren’t the same thing.

Anyway, if we take it that the 120th day of a connection that commenced on 11 August works out as being Saturday, 8 December, then:

a) Sections 11.1 and 11.2 of your contract require you to send, on (specifically) 5 December, “a bill” (and that is a single bill) which shows that you were continuously connected throughout the period from 11 August to 8 December. Well, self-evidently that's impossible, dates-wise.

b) Section 11.4.2 of your contract gives you, instead, 29 days on either side of 5 December, to get your claim to The Mobile Outlet. Which is different to the requirement in Sections 11.1 and 11.2, which is merely to send off documents within that period. (And remember that The Mobile Outlet is currently having its mail forwarded.)

What seems likely, then, is that, on 11 December, T-Mobile is going to issue you a bill that will show you were connected on 8 December. You will not, obviously, be able to use this bill to comply with Section 11.1 or Section 11.2 of your contract (so, theoretically, you would lose your entire cashback entitlement - but, of course, no court would uphold that because what is being demanded of you is impossible).

The 29th day after 5 December will be Thursday, 3 January. To comply with Section 11.4.2 of your contract, you’d have to get your claim to (wherever) The Mobile Outlet (then is) by that date. Frankly, if The Mobile Outlet is still having its mail redirected by then, you’re going to have precious little margin for error in getting a bill issued on 11 December delivered to you, sent off to The Mobile Outlet by you and then redirected from Shipley to Bradford by the Post Office to arrive on or before 3 January - what with the Christmas mail delays and all the Bank Holidays.

But none of this solves the problem I keep raising.

Which is that no single bill - and you’re being asked for a single bill - is going to show that you were:
a) Connected to T-Mobile on 11 August,
b) Connected to T-Mobile on 8 December, AND
c) Connected to T-Mobile continuously throughout the period between these two dates.

Because the bill you’ll get from T-Mobile dated 11 December (whenever it does arrive) isn’t going to show that.

It will merely show that you were connected between 11 November and 11 December. it won't state that prior to 11 November you'd been continuously connected since 11 August. It won't mention 11 August at all, so it won't show that you've been connected for 120 days - which is what is required of you in the contract.

You are absolutely right to raise this query now. You (as does everybody else on a contract with The Mobile Outlet that commenced after 1 August) need to get this issue clearly sorted out with The Mobile Outlet, in writing, NOW, within the next month.

Every contract is otherwise going to end up in the courts.


I hate to have to add it, but there’s another difference between the parts in Section 11.1 and Section 11.2 and the parts in Section 11.4.2 that I haven’t tackled here. And this could be used as an excuse for their apparent contradiction.

The bits in Section 11.1 and 11.2 that tell you to “Simply send each voucher in numbered sequence order on each Instalment Date and send it to us with a bill evidencing that you have been connected for the periods set out in clause 11.2” don’t actually say that doing this constitutes the making of a claim; it’s simply something that you’re required to do under the contract. Only the bits from Section 11.4 onwards refer to actions that constitute the making of a claim. But let’s got get into that - yet.