Creaking Stairs - NHBC claim

ladymint

Hi!

I have posted this in another forum but I would like to hear from anyone else that has experience with this kind of things. So here's the deal:
I am having a problem with creaking stairs. I am not the first owner of the property so I don't know what happened before we moved in, but clearly someone tried to fix the stairs from the top before, or at least did what they could to reduce the noise so that we didn't notice. The result is that the stairs, after a few months, started to creak too much and we called in the NHBC.

As we were expecting, NHBC says that it's not the builders fault. They say it's the fault of the carpet fitter who nailed in the grippers. The "inspector" says that, as the grippers were nailed, the claim will be rejected. He says that Persimmon didn't put in the carpets, otherwise they would cover it.

Also, he said that the stairs have a sticker saying that the grippers cannot be nailed into the stairs. I pointed out that no stickers were there and he said that "You don't know if they were removed!".

After this, the Persimmon's representative joined the conversation and this is what happened:
Inspector: "The stairs always have a sticker on them saying that the grippers cannot be nailed, right?
Persimmon: "No, they don't."
Inspector: "I am surprised!"
Persimmon: "It's *possibly* mentioned on the documentation given to the original owner, but there's nothing on the stairs."
Me: "If there's no indication that grippers cannot be nailed, how can you be rejecting a claim on that basis?"
Inspector: "Because it's standard.".

I have been reading and, from what I understand, that is not the standard. Sadly, in new builds, grippers cannot be nailed because the stairs are crap really. Otherwise, it would be fine.

We had a joiner around that said that the stairs have moved. This is shown in the cracks right below the stairs and a gap in the banister(?). He also says that no blocks were put under those stairs, that's why they creak so much. He can be wrong, I know. But it doesn't seem that this problem is clearly caused by the grippers being nailed. We had a few other joiners in (4) and no one mentioned the grippers. They all said that the blocks are missing.

I said to the Inspector that without accessing under the stairs, he couldn't be sure that the blocks were there to begin with nor that the stairs were well built. He said he is sure it was because of the grippers and left without checking under the stairs (that would mean breaking plaster, but that will have to be done anyway).
It just seems to me that he didn't truly investigate the problem and I am quite sure that when we carry out the work, we will see something wrong under those stairs. If that happens and I send any evidence to NHBC, they will again say that we have accessed it and that they can't be sure that it wasn't us who caused the problem/removed stuff. So really, is NHBC of any use if you're not the first owner?

I have a few questions and would really appreciate if someone could help me:

1. Can NHBC reject a claim on the basis that grippers cannot be nailed to the stairs if no stickers are present on the stairs?

2. If it was the nailing of the grippers the problem, wouldn't all the stairs be creaky? It is mostly the stairs that are built on site and not the others, so I find it very strange that the nailing of grippers was this "selective" since the stairs that are pre-built are fine.

3. Should I call in a surveyor or something to check the stairs and fight the NHBC's claim (if shown that it was not the grippers)?

4. Is this something that home insurance would usually cover?

5. Isn't this something that the home buyers report should have pointed out? It was noticeable through the carpet that something was there holding the stairs but obviously we didn't notice as we couldn't check everything, but the surveyor should, right?

Any advice would be truly appreciated. Thank you!

joe_the_fitter

ladymint wrote: »

Hi!

I have posted this in another forum but I would like to hear from anyone else that has experience with this kind of things. So here's the deal:
I am having a problem with creaking stairs. I am not the first owner of the property so I don't know what happened before we moved in, but clearly someone tried to fix the stairs from the top before, or at least did what they could to reduce the noise so that we didn't notice. The result is that the stairs, after a few months, started to creak too much and we called in the NHBC.

As we were expecting, NHBC says that it's not the builders fault. They say it's the fault of the carpet fitter who nailed in the grippers. The "inspector" says that, as the grippers were nailed, the claim will be rejected. He says that Persimmon didn't put in the carpets, otherwise they would cover it.

Also, he said that the stairs have a sticker saying that the grippers cannot be nailed into the stairs. I pointed out that no stickers were there and he said that "You don't know if they were removed!".

After this, the Persimmon's representative joined the conversation and this is what happened:
Inspector: "The stairs always have a sticker on them saying that the grippers cannot be nailed, right?
Persimmon: "No, they don't."
Inspector: "I am surprised!"
Persimmon: "It's *possibly* mentioned on the documentation given to the original owner, but there's nothing on the stairs."
Me: "If there's no indication that grippers cannot be nailed, how can you be rejecting a claim on that basis?"
Inspector: "Because it's standard.".

I have been reading and, from what I understand, that is not the standard. Sadly, in new builds, grippers cannot be nailed because the stairs are crap really. Otherwise, it would be fine.

We had a joiner around that said that the stairs have moved. This is shown in the cracks right below the stairs and a gap in the banister(?). He also says that no blocks were put under those stairs, that's why they creak so much. He can be wrong, I know. But it doesn't seem that this problem is clearly caused by the grippers being nailed. We had a few other joiners in (4) and no one mentioned the grippers. They all said that the blocks are missing.

I said to the Inspector that without accessing under the stairs, he couldn't be sure that the blocks were there to begin with nor that the stairs were well built. He said he is sure it was because of the grippers and left without checking under the stairs (that would mean breaking plaster, but that will have to be done anyway).
It just seems to me that he didn't truly investigate the problem and I am quite sure that when we carry out the work, we will see something wrong under those stairs. If that happens and I send any evidence to NHBC, they will again say that we have accessed it and that they can't be sure that it wasn't us who caused the problem/removed stuff. So really, is NHBC of any use if you're not the first owner?

I have a few questions and would really appreciate if someone could help me:

1. Can NHBC reject a claim on the basis that grippers cannot be nailed to the stairs if no stickers are present on the stairs?

2. If it was the nailing of the grippers the problem, wouldn't all the stairs be creaky? It is mostly the stairs that are built on site and not the others, so I find it very strange that the nailing of grippers was this "selective" since the stairs that are pre-built are fine.

3. Should I call in a surveyor or something to check the stairs and fight the NHBC's claim (if shown that it was not the grippers)?

4. Is this something that home insurance would usually cover?

5. Isn't this something that the home buyers report should have pointed out? It was noticeable through the carpet that something was there holding the stairs but obviously we didn't notice as we couldn't check everything, but the surveyor should, right?

Any advice would be truly appreciated. Thank you!

Hi
I am a carpet fitter and I have had trouble with the new way the buiders manufacture staircases. As a fitter I am not allowed to nail into the stairs as this will cause damage. The builders get very angry at this . My argument is there are houses built 100 years or more ago and have carpets and laid on them time and again. MDF and plywood constuction is a very Cheap way of making stairs as iS the rest of the buld in new houses. This just another example of big companys ripping off the people who pay for the crap goods that we have no way of avoiding.
Keep on at them about this ,modern stairs are rubbish and will not stand the test of time.Every time there is a complaint about creaking stairs the "gripper" excuse is always the first one to be used.. Most of the time the houses are built to quick and you get a lot of shrinkage. Or the stair cases are left out in the rain and get wet and distort.This I have seen myself.
Good luck I hope you get them changed .iF you do make sure they are made of timber and not MDF.

happycamel_2

NHBC never pay out. Just pay to get it fixed. Cost us £450 in our last house for the stairs to be retreaded and tied to the wall properly.

leveller2911

As a joiner who makes staircases I agree with Joe the fitter (with the exception that using ply for risers in stairs is fine,especially good quality Birch faced ply, not cheap but very stable).. If there are no glue blocks fitted under each tread where they meet the risers then this is why the stairs would creek.

Once the treads and risers shrink (minimal) the problem is made worse by the lack of glue blocks and also MDF is the cheapest/worse material to use as it can de-laminate easily. The wedges that hold the treads and risers in place should also be glued.If there were glue blocks fitted and they taken off (can't imagine why) then you would see the remains of the glue or nail holes where they were nailed on(again not good practice to just nail them on).

There is no earthly reason why carpet grippers should not be nailed and I'm afraid they are trying to con you,simple as that.

Remember that the NHBC was set up to police the quality of the builds and make sure that standards were/are kept to. The problem is the NHBC is financed by the house building companies like Permisson,Barretts etc.Its just a club for members and as such should be treated with suspicion

SuzieSue

leveller2911 wrote: »

Remember that the NHBC was set up to police the quality of the builds and make sure that standards were/are kept to. The problem is the NHBC is financed by the house building companies like Permisson,Barretts etc.Its just a club for members and as such should be treated with suspicion

Agreed. It doesn't matter If you are the initial purchaser or not, the NHBC will always try not to pay out. Their inspectors are encouraged to fob people off and hope they will go away.

It might be worth threatening them with the small claims court as it won't cost very much and going through with it.

ladymint

Thank you all. Very helpful information!

I am still to hear from anyone with a successful claim for this type of problem £450 wouldn't be too bad for us but I presume that's just a staircase, right? We have two as it is a 3-storey property and we have been quoted a minimum of £700 just for the blocks.

I saw myself the floorboards in the rain in a nearby development. Those are going to be installed in a property and obviously will cause problems

We were thinking about the small claims court as well but the trouble we will have to go through with it will be so much... and without an official document from a professional saying that the problem is not the grippers but the building quality, we are afraid that it will get us nowhere.

We are considering bringing in an inspector. Any advice?

SuzieSue

It might be worth contacting these people. I can't personally recommend them but I've seen them on the tv:

http://www.newbuildinspections.com/

Furts

SuzieSue wrote: »

It might be worth contacting these people. I can't personally recommend them but I've seen them on the tv:

http://www.newbuildinspections.com/

Before considering this type of route, consider that an expert witness report acceptable to a court would cost, say, £750. Then if the other party contest it...a problem.

Before this if you had an agreement for a jointly commissioned report you may get an acceptable one for £450-£500. However if the other party refuse...a problem.

Ladymint has not said if she is still within the two year warranty period. If so, NHBC Resolution Service should be available. Has this been sought? What is the fee structure? What was the outcome?

If the claim is between years three and ten has it been approached as a structural defect? Again what is the fee structure? Where did it get to?

Only ladymint knows the wording and clauses applicable to her warranty - these need reviewing with a fine tooth comb. This includes the mechanism for challenging the "expert" opinions of NHBC staff.

Ultimately, dealing with NHBC is a challenge - they have no concept of fairness, nor being reasonable, nor offering a good service. NHBC are a trade body, whose role is to protect the trade... by using the money paid by new house purchasers. It is an enormous scam that protects builders with customers money.

To date, no goverment has been willing to take them on NHBC and defeat them. John Precott tried and was counter attacked over many years- this shows how powerful NHBC are and who is really the most obnoxious bully!

wymondham

NHBC = worthless

Just gives buyers of new homes a false sense of protection and another 'incentive' to buy new. Try claiming on it to realise what it covers....

SuzieSue

wymondham wrote: »

NHBC = worthless

I disagree. It is actually worse than worthless because innocent purchases rely on it. It is a great big scam that has been going on for decades and has caused untold heartache for thousands of people.

ladymint

I agree with you all. It is worthless specially if you are not the first owner as they reject everything saying that it was the first buyers fault and that we don't know what went on on the property. True, but in that case NHBC should not be advertised as a protection until the property is 10 years. It should be a protection for the first owner only.

We were one of those purchasers that relied on the NHBC and decided for this property against another one because this one had the "extra" protection.

This is a 8 year old property. To us, it seems that the previous owners lived like animals and didn't do a thing to it. So anything that got broken was either binned or had a quick fix. So they wouldn't bother doing a claim on the NHBC as I don't think they even knew how to do it. Not trying to be mean, really.
The fact that they didn't put a claim before is working against us.

Furts you are right and that's one of the reason why we haven't done anything yet as it may be easier to just fix it. But at the same time, we were promised a warranty...

Any ideas if home insurance would cover this?

I know some people had claims rejected because of this same reason because there were stickers on the stairs warning not to do it. In our case there were no stickers and that was confirmed by the builder representative.

EDIT: Sorry Furts, yes it was treated as a building defect and the inspector said it was clearly over the minimum claim amount. He also said that if they had installed the carpets, they would definitely cover this. It is something the NHBC would cover.