Rotpunkt vs Alno kitchen

stone1709

Hello all I sure you have seen 1001 kitchen threads but here's another one for you....i am having a house extension with kitchen replaced as part of it. It's not going to happen for a few months yet but went to a couple of kitchen places to get some initial idea of design and ballpark unit costs. Both were independents in berks...first place was small showroom but the guy was really good, spent a good deal of time with us, giving a lot of advice on design, layout etc. They sold Rotpunkt which i have never heard of or seen discussed in these forums - ballpark cost for units on L shape of 4.5m + 3.5m runs was 5k + around 2-3k for all the nice in draw inserts, pullouts etc.
Next place sold Alno...they estimated 13k based upon units only (no inserts etc). So my question is what is the quality of Rotpunkt, is it that inferior as this is more in line with my budget - the Rotpunkt designer suggested outside of the real high end brands the German kitchens were pretty much of the same quality.
Any comments or alternative ideas are much appreciated.
Thanks Stone

ryder72

IMHO Alno is one of the most overrated and overpriced kitchen on the market, irrespective of its country of origin. It is a marginally better product than Rotpunkt but certainly not worth 2-3 times worth the cost.

To a very great extent Alno's presence in a very well known department store gives it a lift terms of public perception.

A large part of its range remains basic foil wrapped doors. Lots of features you would expect at that price point remain unavailable.

You will find a lot of good kitchens at the Rot Punkt price point and for about 10% more you could get yourself some seriously nice stuff.

stone1709

Thanks for the reply. What other potential brands are there at around the Rotpunk price point or just above? I am checking out a place that does Hacker next week, but from reading previous threads this seems to be quite a low end German brand?
Thanks Stone

ryder72

Hacker do the Classic range which is similar to Rot Punkt. You may want to look at Wellmann, Schuller C1 at the entry level end. Hacker Systemat is their mid-range offering and comparable to Pronorm, Schuller C2, Alno, Nolte etc.

If you get up to the Systemat price point, you will probably do better for similar prices.

Gower198

How did it go with your Kitchen choice. Just starting to prepare for new kitchen. Did you go for Rotpunkt?

martin1959

Gower,


We have a Rotpunkt kitchen on order currently. We went round all the sheds and they came out at about 5-6k for the design we wanted. L shape of 2.7m and 4.6m with an island unit. We then visited a local independent and they have been fantastic. We have been in 7/8 times, sometimes for nearly 2 hours whilst we tweak designs etc. We have borrowed doors and plinth samples to take to tile shops.


The quality of the doors and units look great, and it came in at just under £10k........and then they rang us and told us Rotpunkt were having a sale in Jan, and they could pass on another 15% discount!!. So we are actually paying about £3k more than from a 'shed'.


We feel a bit guilty not getting the worktops from them, but can save £700 by going to a local independent quartz dealer.


When you consider that the cost of the units is only a part of the cost of the new kitchen, it is not worth scrimping on the units. So far our kitchen is


Units £8800
Worktops £3000
Glass splashbacks £2000
Fitting £2000
Floor tiling £3000
.........and I am sure there will be more before we are finished!

leveller2911

martin1959 wrote: »

Gower,

The quality of the doors and units look great, and it came in at just under £10k........and then they rang us and told us Rotpunkt were having a sale in Jan, and they could pass on another 15% discount!!. So we are actually paying about £3k more than from a 'shed'.

When you consider that the cost of the units is only a part of the cost of the new kitchen, it is not worth scrimping on the units. So far our kitchen is


Units £8800

You mentioned you have looked at the "sheds" but have you tried DIY kitchens?. Their units are as good as any of the German suppliers . £8,800 is a lot of money for mass produced kitchen units unless its huge. Just to add the actual cost of the materials for a standard 600 wide drawer line base unit will be around £20-00 and that includes the German manufacturers. The only advantage German manufacturers have is they are more flexible with unit sizes apart from that there is little between the better British and German manufacturers.

Most of them will use either Grass,Hettich or Blum hinges/drawer runners.British manufacturers tend to use Blum and I believe Rotpunkt do too but theres little between them in terms of price or quality of the hinges/runners.

ryder72

leveller2911-

I think you are missing the point here. You are comparing manufacturer prices with retail prices. Thats like comparing the price of a bag of Uncle Bens rice from a cash and carry to a portion of rice charged by a restaurant. Not everyone in the world has the time, inclination or ability to plan, order and project manage their kitchen installation. DIY is fine (indeed better than sheds) if you are going to take on the risk yourself and manage the installation and you dont know anything beyond a basic kitchen.

martin1959 above has got a retailer to spend the time and use their expertise to design, order, project manage the installation and it may come as a surprise to you but these things come with a price.


Comparing a DIY kitchens unit with one from sheds is an acceptable comparison but not with a German kitchen. I know this topic has been done to death so without dwelling on the point, I'd simply like you to show me where you can buy a 570 * 600 door and 135 * 600 drawer front from PWS (which is what most of DIY offering is) in their vinyl wrapped for £20. This doesnt even cover the cost of the carcase material, hinges etc.

Maybe the materials for a 60cm base unit does cost only £40. It doesnt cut, edge, drill and assemble itself does it? That clever website on which you order the kitchen doesnt build and run itself does it?

Do you grow your own cotton, spin your own yarn, weave your own fabric and tailor your own clothes or do you buy them from a shop knowing that the cotton was grown for 50p yet the shirt costs £30?

My point is that there is no sense in going back to cost of raw materials as we have gone on for hundreds of years in a different direction to growing and making everything we need to specialising and trading our speciality for another persons' to create an economy.

leveller2911

ryder72 wrote: »

martin1959 above has got a retailer to spend the time and use their expertise to design, order, project manage the installation and it may come as a surprise to you but these things come with a price.

Don't think you need to be patronising ryder......I'm fully aware of how a business works having run one for nearly 20 years.

Comparing a DIY kitchens unit with one from sheds is an acceptable comparison but not with a German kitchen. I know this topic has been done to death so without dwelling on the point, I'd simply like you to show me where you can buy a 570 * 600 door and 135 * 600 drawer front from PWS (which is what most of DIY offering is) in their vinyl wrapped for £20. This doesnt even cover the cost of the carcase material, hinges etc.

Maybe I should clarify my posting .

The kitchen in my house is 22 years old (I must get round to making one soon, bit like a busmans holiday) and although its starting to look its age its still functional.It was a standard off the peg kitchen probably from from Howdens,cheapest range they did at the time but thats what the builder fitted.

If we just deal with facts then the facts are that the vast majority of German kitchen units are constructed from exactly the same materials as the standard UK kitchen manufacturers so their carcases will be Egger board,hinges ,runners etc will be Grass,Hettich or Blum so there is no difference whatsoever between UK kitchens and German ones. My point being our carcases are 22 years old and the hinges/runners work fine so German carcases being made of the same materials as British kitchens ,same hinges,same drawer runners etc means the only difference between the two are the drawer fronts and doors. Rotpunkt kitchens (Egger board carcases and Blum hinges ) DIY kitchens (Egger carcases with 2.5mm edgebanded lippings and Blum hinges) Poggenpohl (Egger board carcases with 0.8mm edgebanded lippings and Blum or Grass hinges). Can you post a link to the actual specifications of German Kitchens such as Poggenpohl,Rotpunkt etc?. The average man in the street will not realise the difference in thickness/material of the edgebandings etc but they are an important component on a carcase.

With regards to drawer fronts and doors DIY etc will supply (depending on style) solid timber,foil wrapped,veneered,MDF (to be painted) etc.

Maybe the materials for a 60cm base unit does cost only £40. It doesnt cut, edge, drill and assemble itself does it? That clever website on which you order the kitchen doesnt build and run itself does it?

It takes companies like DIY a few minutes to make a carcase which would include cutting the Egger board,edgeband,drill, assemble ,fit hinges ,drawer runners etc and it would be the same for a German company.

My point is that there is no sense in going back to cost of raw materials as we have gone on for hundreds of years in a different direction to growing and making everything we need to specialising and trading our speciality for another persons' to create an economy.

There is a valied point in mentioning the raw materials when people try and promote a product as being "far superior" to the same product built by another company when in fact the product (the carcase) is constructed in exactly the same way,using the same materials and the life span will be the same. The only difference as I stated previously is that German manufcturers will make bespoke sized units and some of their handless fronts ,design wise may be seen as nicer but as we know beauty is in the eye of the beholder whats one person like another may not.

Just my opinion but the real reason people promote German kitchens over UK ones is down to a flooded marketplace and if a designer can give the impression that a particular product that they sell is superior to the mass produced market then they create a nice little niche in the marketplace.

If German suppliers/manufacturers increased their percentage of the UK market via advertising on national TV,papers etc would designers like yourself move your focus onto another country for that "superior" kitchen thats was not readily available in the UK (USA,Italy etc) to make that "niche" market in the UK again?.

Everyone is free to make their own choices and making the OP aware of other manufacturers is surely a good thing?. I'm not advising them not to buy a German kitchen ,I'm giving my opinion on the differences between them.

ryder72

I wont go into details of why German kitchens are better as this has been gone into several times in the past on this forum itself. Interestingly there is an ongoing debate within the kitchen trade press too right now so if you look up the right magazines, you will see opinions expressed by both sides.

Your view of a kitchen factory is very representative of how British manufacturers work. Its not how the Germans work and their investment into product consistently high quality can be

Google 'Leicht kitchen factory video' and you will see a video from about 5-6 years ago on the state of a small German manufacturer we deal with. Other German manufacturers offer similar levels of investment and automation.

You are right in as much as they all use chipboard but let me assure you that there is more than 1 grade of chipboard out there.

You fail to address your claim that a kitchen cabinet is made from £20 worth of parts. Why dont you back up your claim with evidence?

leveller2911

ryder72 wrote: »

Your view of a kitchen factory is very representative of how British manufacturers work. Its not how the Germans work and their investment into product consistently high quality can be

Google 'Leicht kitchen factory video' and you will see a video from about 5-6 years ago on the state of a small German manufacturer we deal with. Other German manufacturers offer similar levels of investment and automation.

Your totally ignoring the point that even a 22yr old carcase made with the lowest grade melamine faced chipboard will be quite useable if looked after so there is little point in paying a large premium for a supposedly superior product from Germany when ,as I have already pointed out they use the same materials as UK manufacturers.
Ryder, a carcase is a chipboard box at the end of the day ,There are no joints as such just maxi fix,mini fix fittings etc and some glue thats it , it doesn't get any more basic than that how much you try to "big" up the German factories.

I have fitted hundreds of standard kitchens over the years and for the last 15-20 years I also make them so I know more than the average Joe.

You are right in as much as they all use chipboard but let me assure you that there is more than 1 grade of chipboard out there.

And as I pointed out even the lowest grade chipboard can last a lifetime if its not abused. There is very little difference in the quality or longevity of hinges/runners from the likes of Blum or Grass .

Still waiting for that spec on the Rotpunkt or Poggenpohl kitchens. I'm sure there would be a spec on their websites but I can't find it so it would be appreciated if you could post a link to the specs.How can anyone make an informed choice without knowing the specification of a kitchen, DIY are happy to do so.

You fail to address your claim that a kitchen cabinet is made from £20 worth of parts. Why dont you back up your claim with evidence?

A carcase will cost no more than £20-00( 10"x7" Egger/Kronospan board is about £40 and you can make a few carcases out of a sheet,include a pair of Blum or Grass hinges and you can make a carcase for £20-00 especially when a factories is geared up for mass production but a carcase is just that ,a carcase and as you well know there are numerous styles of door/drawer made from various materials so a door would be extra.

I couldn't compete on price with any factory and wouldn't bother trying.If we are going to go down the "quality" of chipboard route then I will also mention that factories use "MFC chipboard" for one reason only and that is price because its cheap ,if they truely wanted the "quality" of material they wouldn't use chipboard at all they would use a Birch faced ply core or similar so the "quality" of the chipboard arguement is a complete red herring.
If you search google you will find plenty of companies who just make carcases.

I can't see us ever agreeing on this one :)