UKPC not correctly parked within bay

Pealicious

bazster wrote: »

You come back here and tell us. We will then establish whether it is compliant with the legal requirements, and help you write a challenge for your boyfriend to send to UKPC.

UKPC will most likely reject the challenge, and we will then help you write an appeal for your boyfriend to send to POPLA (the "independent" appeals service). He will very likely win this appeal, but in the unlikely event he loses, he then ignores them until they go away.

I keep saying "your boyfriend", because it's important not to tell UKPC who was driving. They are much more likely to make fatal errors in their paperwork if they are pursuing the registered keeper, because the law which they believe entitles them to pursue the keeper rather than the driver is very, very detailed about what they must do, and if they get it wrong in one detail they lose. Well they most likely lose anyway, but it's easier if they simply hand you a victory by screwing up their paperwork.

Hi
The NTK has now arrived with a photo, very blurred but presumably my vehicle parked with a line marked behind the car but nothing to the sides. Do I need to scan this in for you guys to see?
I have had a look around the car park andn there are no signs over the entrances. I have taken a pic of one of the notices which are dotted around. The only one I would have walked past was placed at a disabled space with the headline 'NO UNAUTHORISED PARKING' which I assumed referred to the disabled bay. There are some further rules beneath - including the one about parking within marked bays - but they are so small they are impossible to read unless you are standing in the middle of the disabled bay a foot or so away. Do you need me to post this photo?
What do I do now please?
Many thanks everyone.

fisherjim

Pealicious wrote: »

Hi
The NTK has now arrived with a photo, very blurred but presumably my vehicle parked with a line marked behind the car but nothing to the sides. Do I need to scan this in for you guys to see?
I have had a look around the car park andn there are no signs over the entrances. I have taken a pic of one of the notices which are dotted around. The only one I would have walked past was placed at a disabled space with the headline 'NO UNAUTHORISED PARKING' which I assumed referred to the disabled bay. There are some further rules beneath - including the one about parking within marked bays - but they are so small they are impossible to read unless you are standing in the middle of the disabled bay a foot or so away. Do you need me to post this photo?
What do I do now please?
Many thanks everyone.

I park in this car park a number of times a week, and as stated before the signage is almost non existent.
When you drove in you could not possibly have seen any signs at all, the three you passed were hidden out of your line of view.
The area you parked in does not have one sign in it.
Also the place where you parked now has been covered by barriers to stop anyone parking there.
So how would you have known about their silly rules?
They obviously have a problem with others not knowing about that area not being a parking place as why have they now cordoned it off, an admission that the signage is non compliant I would say.

Guys_Dad

Looks like an appeal based on the lack of signage primarily. A few photos of the missing sign at the entrance would not go amiss either.

Custard_Pie

Herzlos wrote: »

They might argue that the parking has prevented someone else using a space, but they'd need to provide evidence of this and assuming you paid but didn't actually use a space, there's still no loss.

I've yet to see a PPC use that argument. They normally go for that they advertised the conditions which by parking the appellant accepted the contract and thus the payment. I've seen them win a PoPLA by the appellant accepted that once they saw the conditions they moved their car. PoPLA construed this to be an acceptance on the contract. A very weak argument, so probably best to go for the lack of economic loss and poor signage defense every time IMHO.

Coupon-mad

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Looks like an appeal based on the lack of signage primarily. A few photos of the missing sign at the entrance would not go amiss either.

Yep, a fairly short challenge but with definite appeal points like here:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/62538357#Comment_62538357

...and as ever, do not imply who was driving. Write it in the third person about 'the driver'.

Pealicious

So having received the NTK my boyfriend now needs to write and appeal the charge? Can I use this:

POPLA have 4 grounds under which an appeal may be made. The keeper is appealing under the first gound as the driver denies the alleged contravention detailed in the notice to keeper.

POPLA defines this first appeal ground as being "The vehicle was not improperly parked: e.g. that the vehicle was not parked where stated on the parking charge notice; that the driver believes they were still within the time paid for; that the voucher was clearly displayed or that the conditions were not properly signed.

I require you, therefore, to either cancel the charge or issue me with a POPLA code, within POPLA's published timescales.

Is this the correct next step for me now? Do I need to include photos of the lack of signage at the entrances? This area is now barriered - this means I haven't been able to get a photo of it without the barriers in place as it was when I parked there, however I have a photo of the area with the barriers and can include this to indicate that it seems they also believe their signage is inadequate.

Many thanks

Guys_Dad

As you are almost certain to get Appeal Refused, you could enclose a picture of your Granny bathing in Bognor if you like!

Send the appeal as it stands and then we do the POPLA appeal

Pealicious

I'm sending this to UKPC today:

I am writing to contest the parking charge referenced above.
The driver was unaware that the parking area was not available for parking; there was no signage to indicate that this was not a parking space.
The driver paid the appropriate charge to park for the given amount of time so there was no economic loss to you.
POPLA have 4 grounds under which an appeal may be made. The keeper is appealing under the first ground as the driver denies the alleged contravention detailed in the notice to keeper.

POPLA defines this first appeal ground as being "The vehicle was not improperly parked: e.g. that the vehicle was not parked where stated on the parking charge notice; that the driver believes they were still within the time paid for; that the voucher was clearly displayed or that the conditions were not properly signed."

I require you, therefore, to either cancel the charge or issue me with a POPLA code, within POPLA's published timescales.

I will let you know what happens...

Pealicious

bazster wrote: »

You come back here and tell us. We will then establish whether it is compliant with the legal requirements, and help you write a challenge for your boyfriend to send to UKPC.

UKPC will most likely reject the challenge, and we will then help you write an appeal for your boyfriend to send to POPLA (the "independent" appeals service). He will very likely win this appeal, but in the unlikely event he loses, he then ignores them until they go away.

I keep saying "your boyfriend", because it's important not to tell UKPC who was driving. They are much more likely to make fatal errors in their paperwork if they are pursuing the registered keeper, because the law which they believe entitles them to pursue the keeper rather than the driver is very, very detailed about what they must do, and if they get it wrong in one detail they lose. Well they most likely lose anyway, but it's easier if they simply hand you a victory by screwing up their paperwork.

OK guys, hope you're still with me...

My boyfrield has received a letter which states the following:

Thank you for your recent correspondance etc "you have told us that you were the Registered keeper..." (this is not true) "...but not the driver" it then goes ojn to invite him to pay or reveal the driver's name and address.

It goes on to say that if it remains unpaid for 35 days and UKPC do not know the name and address of the driver they may seek to recover costs from my boyfriend.

Final paragraph: "The parking charge has been on hold whilst on appeal and may now be settled at the reduced rate of £60 within 35 days..."

What do I do from this point? They have not provided a POPLA number. Do I need to request one? Sorry - please can I have advice on next steps?

Many thanks

Coupon-mad

That is naughty of them but we are seeing that a lot at the moment. You do not have to say who was driving and PPCs have been reminded of this by the BPA recently. They have NO EXCUSE in delaying your POPLA code!

Write one more letter to UKPC now:

Point out that it is already well past 35 days since they received your appeal and so in fact they have missed the deadline to send a POPLA code to you, as an appellant registered keeper. They have breached the rules in the BPA code of practice at a time when you understand the BPA have recently reminded ALL AOS members that they cannot insist on appeals coming from a driver, nor reply to an appeal in this 'stalling letter' manner. Pretending that an appeal has to state who was driving is completely untrue, unjustified as a response to your appeal and is no reason to take longer than 35 days to reject or accept it.

Tell them that, as they have refused to follow the requirements of their own industry code, they have failed to establish registered keeper liability in this case and, in addition, they are in breach of the CPUTR 2008. Any further contact by UKPC or their agents in trying to pursue this spurious charge will be harassment and will be robustly reported in an official complaint about UKPC to the BPA & DVLA.

And say that you will also complain in writing to their client in that car park and would be minded to sue them and UKPC as jointly and severally liable for damages for distress, should this unjustified 'charge' be pursued further under the circumstances.

{PPCs hate their clients being brought into it!!}

Say that if they do now belatedly reject your appeal then of course you will require a POPLA code because clearly you are entitled to appeal, as the registered keeper.