Have we got ourselves in a mess already? Two bed flatshare - one name on contract

Werdnal

helpmeimagraduate wrote: »

Is it really a big deal? The previous tenants had the same arrangement apparently. So I could get my friend to ask the letting agent to change the contract?

Nothing smarmy at all, I was stating a fact! NEVER sign anything until you understand what it means, but oh, I forgot, you haven't signed anything have you.

Your friend can ask, but it is signed now and there is no reason why the agent would accept any request to change it. Legally, the deal is done, they have got their money, the tenancy agreement is signed, why would they agree to change it?

helpmeimagraduate

Werdnal wrote: »

Nothing smarmy at all, I was stating a fact! NEVER sign anything until you understand what it means, but oh, I forgot, you haven't signed anything have you.

Your friend can ask, but it is signed now and there is no reason why the agent would accept any request to change it. Legally, the deal is done, they have got their money, the tenancy agreement is signed, why would they agree to change it?

They might agree to change it because they realise when we phone them that they didn't fully explain the nature of the tenancy and were misleading. She said "you have a tenancy" to me - that is clearly not the case in hindsight.

Look, you can patronise me until you go blue in the face but I do actually appreciate your replies, it is helpful. What I would be interested to know is what you think of this arrangement? Could it be fine as long as my friend doesn't decide to tell me to leave etc? As in, do you think it is okay to just go ahead and risk it and maybe find somewhere new after the six months (the contract between my friend and the landlord) has elapsed?

Also - you keep saying how I can't do anything because I am not party to the contract and so it's nothing to do with me. Well why did the letting agent offer a two bedroom flat to the TWO of us and only create a tenancy agreement with one of us?

Werdnal

You never know, it might actually work in your favour. Have you ever lived with this friend? What if she gets a boyfriend who you don't like? She leaves dirty undies on the bathroom floor? Uses all your cornflakes and doesn't replace them? Plays loud music 'til the early hours? You can just walk away into the sunset safe in the knowledge that she is the sole tenant and totally responsible for the property, whilst you have nil liability and cannot be chased or sued for any loss or damage. As a lodger you wouldn't even have to give her notice, just pack your bags and do a moolight flit if you want.

None of us know why the agent did this, do you think we are mindreaders? As a LL, it is always best to spread the risk and sign up both tenants, but perhaps this LL doesn't want this deal and has told the agents not to manage it this way. Who knows?

helpmeimagraduate

Werdnal wrote: »

You never know, it might actually work in your favour. Have you ever lived with this friend? What if she gets a boyfriend who you don't like? She leaves dirty undies on the bathroom floor? Uses all your cornflakes and doesn't replace them? Plays loud music 'til the early hours? You can just walk away into the sunset safe in the knowledge that she is the sole tenant and totally responsible for the property, whilst you have nil liability and cannot be chased or sued for any loss or damage. As a lodger you wouldn't even have to give her notice, just pack your bags and do a moolight flit if you want.

None of us know why the agent did this, do you think we are mindreaders? As a LL, it is always best to spread the risk and sign up both tenants, but perhaps this LL doesn't want this deal and has told the agents not to manage it this way. Who knows?

What do you mean the LL did not want this deal? Thanks for the reply. I would never leave just like that though.

I guess most importantly I want to know whether there is anything criminally illegal about any of this? One of my friends said that they did the same thing last year (just moved in without a contract as a lodger) and they said that it is an illegal tenancy. Is it only illegal if the landlord never gave permission to have a lodger?

grifferz

helpmeimagraduate wrote: »

What I would be interested to know is what you think of this arrangement? Could it be fine as long as my friend doesn't decide to tell me to leave etc? As in, do you think it is okay to just go ahead and risk it and maybe find somewhere new after the six months (the contract between my friend and the landlord) has elapsed?

Your main risk is indeed that your friend tells you to leave with little notice or otherwise uses your position of having fewer rights to create an unfair situation.

If relations with your friend are currently good then I think in your position I would tell them that I'll stick it out for 6 months but then expect my name added at renewal (assuming we both wished to renew) else otherwise I would be moving on at that point.

helpmeimagraduate wrote: »

Also - you keep saying how I can't do anything because I am not party to the contract and so it's nothing to do with me. Well why did the letting agent offer a two bedroom flat to the TWO of us and only create a tenancy agreement with one of us?

Probably because neither the agent nor the landlord care as long as they are going to get their money, which they are now that one of you signed.

Werdnal

helpmeimagraduate wrote: »

What do you mean the LL did not want this deal?

If the landlord doesn't want joint tenants, they may have told the Agent to set up the contract this way.


As for lodger being "illegal" there is nothing actually illegal about it. If there is a clause prohibiting lodgers, and the LL discovers there is one, then the tenant, ie your friend, may be in breach of contract. The worse that can happen is the LL will evict, but taking a lodger without consent is unlikely to be sufficient grounds for him to take the S8 route to end the tenancy mid-term. More likely, he would issue an S21 to apply to court to end the tenancy when the FT expires.

It is possible the tenancy agreement is a standard one that the agent reproduces for all tenancies, and the clause should have been removed in your case but has been missed.

grifferz

helpmeimagraduate wrote: »

I guess most importantly I want to know whether there is anything criminally illegal about any of this? One of my friends said that they did the same thing last year (just moved in without a contract as a lodger) and they said that it is an illegal tenancy. Is it only illegal if the landlord never gave permission to have a lodger?

There's nothing illegal in it, people having lodgers is very common, subletting is very common, permitted occupiers are very common.

Technically if the tenancy is in one person's name and the tenancy agreement states that subletting and other permanent residents are not allowed then you living there is a breach of the tenancy agreement (still not illegal!).

This could lead to eviction, but that is a difficult procedure at the best of times. Basically even if the landlord was unaware you were there, got outraged when they learned that you were, still they would probably just leave it until the end of the 6 month fixed term to get you out by not renewing your friend's tenancy.

Since in your case it's a two bed flat and everyone involved knows that both of you are living there, this is just not going to happen regardless of what the tenancy agreement says.

helpmeimagraduate

grifferz wrote: »

There's nothing illegal in it, people having lodgers is very common, subletting is very common, permitted occupiers are very common.

Technically if the tenancy is in one person's name and the tenancy agreement states that subletting and other permanent residents are not allowed then you living there is a breach of the tenancy agreement (still not illegal!).

This could lead to eviction, but that is a difficult procedure at the best of times. Basically even if the landlord was unaware you were there, got outraged when they learned that you were, still they would probably just leave it until the end of the 6 month fixed term to get you out by not renewing your friend's tenancy.

Since in your case it's a two bed flat and everyone involved knows that both of you are living there, this is just not going to happen regardless of what the tenancy agreement says.

Thanks for your reply, you've made me a little less nervous. If I'm correct, what you are saying is that there is not much reason to worry if my friend and I are on good terms and remain so: everyone including the head landlord knows that this property is for two people and will know that someone is lodging/subletting (which one is happening here by the way?) and will just go along with it after the tenancy starts since (i) eviction is hard to execute (ii) the head landlord is not going to want to evict since he knows two people are going to be living here.

So as long as relations remain fine, there is no reason why this arrangement can't work.

Still puzzled as to why LL would not want a joint tenancy.

zzzLazyDaisy

helpmeimagraduate wrote: »

everyone including the head landlord knows that this property is for two people and will know that someone is lodging/subletting

Not sure why you would say that. The tenant may be a single parent with a child, and so would need a two bedroomed house.

Angelicdevil

helpmeimagraduate wrote: »

I guess most importantly I want to know whether there is anything criminally illegal about any of this? One of my friends said that they did the same thing last year (just moved in without a contract as a lodger) and they said that it is an illegal tenancy. Is it only illegal if the landlord never gave permission to have a lodger?

Are you *really* a law graduate?!

Shocking.