DIY-Kitchens - any thoughts?

CKdesigner

I think you have taken a lot of my comments the wrong way or out of context. I said I couldn't 'comment' on what other independent kitchen specialists do, not that I know nothing! I kind of think its fairly obvious that if an independent company in whatever business sector doesn't offer a reasonable level of service or reasonable value products then they won't be around for very long - don't you?

I don't like to use terms like 'Bespoke' because I feel there are far too many companies out there using the term to make them sound like more than they actually are. DIY store and Builders merchant kitchens are pretty much 'off the shelf', this is because they have a very limited range of unit dimensions and kitchen doors. Where as the mid range German kitchen make we do has over 450 different doors to choose from and a standard range of cabinet sizes that is virtually countless! So every kitchen is made to order, and if we need to adjust unit dimensions or door ratios its not a problem. So fundamentally our kitchens will fit better.

In terms of you asking for a direct price comparison - if you look on the kitchen compare website we are not going to be as cheap as the Ikea prices but the rest are not a problem.

I don't think I have ever 'belittled' as you say other companies. All I ever do is try and show people there are many paths, not just the builders merchants or DIY stores and that purchasing a new kitchen is one of life's 'major purchases' so justifies a great deal of consideration. Its not just about something being the cheapest its about value for money.

A much wiser person than me recently said to me that to be successful, it is important to stand apart from the competition and there are really only 2 ways to do this. Either to be better or cheaper. To be both at the same time is really not possible. We choose better!

ryder72

DirectDebacle - lets not get into an pointless circular argument.

Would you care to present a real life room problem on here with a realistic budget - say 9k for furniture, for a quality kitchen.

I am happy to put together a design and I think CKDesigner may be open to putting forward a design solution as well. If there are other indie's here, they may want to participate too. Take the same problem to 2-3 sheds and lets see what they come up with.

No one is saying all designers at sheds are bad, but on average they aren't going to be the best around. Design after all is a subjective thing, but most people will on average be able to tell a good one from a bad one.

What he is saying (and I agree) is that a good flexible product enables more design creativity and this doesnt necessarily come at a premium price.

Of course, what is going to be impossible to demonstrate is the service that independents can offer but you only need to so the simplest google search for any of the majors to find out what is really being delivered.

All I can say to give you an example is that a client walked in last weekend with a design from Magnet with an Acrylic door and on a furniture price of £6300 from magnet we were able to offer him a vastly better kitchen for about 6% more and vastly improve the design that has since been sold for an extra 10%. Now on an 18k investment, that £600 isnt bad.

Steve_the_fitter

I shouldnt really comment as its nothing to do with me but did you really have this conversation with this wise person? Really sounds like BS to me. Did this wise person also tell you youre a designer and not a saleman?


[QUOTE=CKdesigner;62258719

A much wiser person than me recently said to me that to be successful, it is important to stand apart from the competition and there are really only 2 ways to do this. Either to be better or cheaper. To be both at the same time is really not possible. We choose better![/QUOTE]

leveller2911

ryder72 wrote: »

All I can say to give you an example is that a client walked in last weekend with a design from Magnet with an Acrylic door and on a furniture price of £6300 from magnet we were able to offer him a vastly better kitchen for about 6% more and vastly improve the design that has since been sold for an extra 10%.

I think kitchen designers as a whole like to confuse the issue somewhat by stating for instance German kitchens are far superior to British kitchens when all I can see is that German kitchens manufacturers are more flexible. Take for instance Kreider and Poggenpohl kitchens ,I have to say after seeing them on a few jobs recently I was not impressed.Poor quality carcases,cheap hinges etc.

On a previous thread I asked where Poggenpohl and Kreider were placed in the German kitchen market on quality and not one kitchen designer on here would answer. The only way kitchen companies/designers will survive is by marketing themselves as somehow different from the rest and create a niche market.I have seen plenty of independant kitchen companies selling "bespoke" "one off" kitchen designs all from standard off the shelf units which is plain deceit.

CKdesigner

Steve_the_fitter wrote: »

I shouldnt really comment as its nothing to do with me but did you really have this conversation with this wise person? Really sounds like BS to me. Did this wise person also tell you youre a designer and not a saleman?

And your point is???

I am a kitchen designer with over 20 years experience working for a couple of national companies and the last 11 years within our own business.

There are kitchen designers and kitchen sales people, its quite easy to tell the difference. Kitchen designers work with their clients to create the best possible kitchen design for them. Kitchen sales people are only interested in selling their customer a bunch of boxes.

jellie

ryder72 wrote: »

Would you care to present a real life room problem on here with a realistic budget - say 9k for furniture, for a quality kitchen.

I would imagine that most people with a £9k budget for just the kitchen furniture wouldn't go to B&Q, Homebase etc.

ryder72

jellie - I wish that were true. I have seen no end of customers spend upwards of £15k with the sheds (B&Q, Wickes, Magnet in [particular) and that would have a furniture element for 7-9k depending on what sort of worktop and appliances were used. Any almost without exception the kitchens were poor to mediocre design.

leveller2911- I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate what I am saying. I dont recall your post asking about Kreider and Poggenpohl, though it would be worth pointing out there there is no such brand as Kreider. With this level of knowledge about German kitchens, you may want to reconsider your 'authoritative' statements on German kitchens.

leveller2911

ryder72 wrote: »

leveller2911- I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate what I am saying. I dont recall your post asking about Kreider and Poggenpohl, though it would be worth pointing out there there is no such brand as Kreider. With this level of knowledge about German kitchens, you may want to reconsider your 'authoritative' statements on German kitchens.

I have posted on more than a few ocasions I know very little about German kitchens.I have been doing some homework and was told by 3 customers that their kitchens were Kreider and were made in Germany. That aside can you tell me where does Poggenpohl sit in terms of quality?. Did you forget to answer or just avoided it?. I will look into Kreider more and get back to you on that.

Educate me Ryder because from what I have seen of Poggenpohl they are basic kitchen carcases (made from Egger board) with run of the mill hinges/drawer runners, etc but very nice worktops.The one thing I don't understand about German/British made kitchens and that is the price of the carcases.I can fully appreciate the German manufacturers are more flexible but thats about it, quality of product is no different.

A 600 drawer line carcase material cost is around £35-00 , they are all made on a factory production line and take a few minutes per carcase to make so why the huge mark up?.

ryder72

leveller2911 - Kreider kitchens are made by Hacker. Hacker is what the Germans call a white label kitchen produced unbranded to put whatever label you want to put on it (or to be sold as Hacker). They do two levels of kitchens, classic and systemat. Classic is the basic range and Systemat slightly higher spec. Both can offer good value for money if purchased at the right price and that is really the million dollar question. Smoke and mirrors employed by a retailer cannot be the fault of the manufacturer, to the detriment of the consumer. Its for consumers to get to the bottom of this.

Poggenpohl is a brand. Plain and simple. If you can tell me why it costs, what it costs, I'd love to find out. They do some clever things but beyond that I cant see what the fuss is.

On the quality of the German carcases (or atleast of the brands I know well), I beg to differ. The carcase material is denser on German carcases, the edging used is much better, I feel even the legs are a slightly better quality. Hinges and runners come from Blum, Grass or Hettich.

I take on board your comment about the carcase material cost and the carcase cost. But you have to ask why the material costs £35 when the raw material for the carcase material was probably only a fiver. There is a cost of manufacturing, labour, transportation, markups etc.

Germans dont work on selling carcases and doors seperately and they include the cost of handles and plinths in the unit cost so I cannot comment on the cost of a carcase as such. What I do know is that comparing the buying in cost of a German unit compared to an English made unit makes the case for selling a higher quality higher spec German product a no-brainer to me.

I have visited several English kitchen manufacturing units and not one (including one of the biggest and most modern ones) comes anywhere close to what I have seen in Germany. If you had a chance to see this for yourself, you might change your mind on why a small premium to buy a product made in a highly automated factory with millions of pounds worth of investment is a worthwhile.

This is not denigrating British products for the sake of it. I have publicly said (and so has CKDesigner) that I will take on a British manufacturer that can offer me the same quality, pricing, flexibility and service on contemporary kitchens. I havent found one but I am open and hopeful that it might happen one day.

DirectDebacle

ryder72 wrote: »

.......Smoke and mirrors employed by a retailer cannot be the fault of the manufacturer, to the detriment of the consumer. Its for consumers to get to the bottom of this.

Which is precisely what I am trying to do but the self styled 'designers' on here simply repeat their assertions that their kitchens are superior but offer no explanation as to why.

If they are that confident in their products then they should have no problem in naming the makes of kitchens they sell. For some reason they blatantly avoid giving any details of their products.

Neither should they have any problem in giving details of the specification of the carcasses. This to include materials used, construction method, what BS/EU standards they conform to and how long they are guaranteed for by the manufacturer and by the retailer if different.

A customer armed with that information will be in a better position to determine if they are being sold a 'vastly better kitchen'.