Is the Financial Ombudsman for real?

Frustrated_and_confused

Hi I am new and have no idea where to post so I hope i'm not in the wrong place.

My partner and I were the victims of cash card fraud whilst in Thailand over a year ago. Our complaint has been ongoing that long and has progressed to FOS.

I quoted the payment services regulations to them which advise that unless we can be proven to have acted fraudulently or negligently (we can't) then we should get our money back. Their response is "When applying the regulations they are not to be applied in a clear cut manner."

Surely this just makes a mockery of the whole system? From all the research I have done I can find absolutely no reason why we should not get our money back but we have been told that although we can now progress to the Ombudsman (the current review was by an adjudicator) we are wasting our time and we are likely to lose the £75 offered as compensation for the companies handling of our complaint.

It is a very long and complicated story that would be a very long and boring essay for anyone to read but right now I just want to know if FOS are right about the regulations or if they are just hoping that we will go away?

Please help!

dalesrider

Without full details of what has happened than none of us can offer up any idea on what the FCA (FOS is no more) may do.
But even with the facts you are looking at how the case is presented to the FCA and how they look at these.
There is no clear cut black and white answers.

Also PSD has clauses that allow card providers not to refund.

Frustrated_and_confused

Hi dalesrider

Thank you for your response. We are currently in NZ meaning we are a bit behind the times, it also makes communication with the UK a bit more complicated. All communication we have had refers to the Financial Ombudsman Service so we had no idea of a name change. What does FCA stand for?

I will try to be brief, over £400 was withdrawn from a cash card during a number of transactions at a time when we were on an overnight bus from Krabi to Bangkok.

We have absolutely no idea how this could happen as both the card and the PIN have to have been compromised. The card was not stolen and the PIN was destroyed in South Africa and not written down anywhere. Not only that, the card used was a secondary card on the account and not the one we normally used. So there is no way the PIN could have been viewed in use (both cards have separate PIN's). So it's a mystery and that's exactly what the card company, and now the FCA are leaning on.

It's frustrating because we know that this money was taken fraudulently and that there is absolutely no way that the banks, FCA or anyone else can possibly know all the methods of fraud that the criminals have access too. Why should we suffer because of that?

I know that the amount may seem small but obviously travelling can leave you a little broke!

The regulations state that the money should be refunded immediately unless we are proven to be negligent, which we weren't. This is also information quoted by Watchdog, Rogue Traders and Which.

It seems like the regulations were written with the sole purpose of protecting the banks and not the consumers if they can't be "applied in a clear cut manner".

:-(

chattychappy

dalesrider wrote: »

Without full details of what has happened than none of us can offer up any idea on what the FCA (FOS is no more) may do.
But even with the facts you are looking at how the case is presented to the FCA and how they look at these.

You are confusing the FSA with the FOS. The FSA has been replaced by the FCA. The FOS continues to handle complaints about financial products (FSA/FCA and OFT regulated), just as before.

CCs were never regulated by the FSA. They are regulated by the OFT, though it is planned to transfer their regulation to the FCA next year. But whether it's a CC or debit card, the OP will be dealing with the FOS.

agrinnall

The problem with your story is that there is no way cash can be withdrawn from an ATM without the PIN, so whoever did it must have obtained it at some point, and as you seem to be ruling out all of the ways in which fraudsters would normally get it it's probably not unreasonable for the bank to think that you must have been complicit. If the FOS have come to the same conclusion then your only recourse is to take court action to recover the money.

chattychappy

Was it a CC or debit card?

Frustrated_and_confused

Thank you agrinall

I actually wish, in hindsight, that we'd just reported the card stolen! It seems that being honest is not always the best option :-(

I understand what you are saying though, there is room for reasonable doubt, I just wish I knew how they did it! Any budding criminals out there with any ideas? lol

Losing that money has been a massive blow to us and just being met with stubborn refusals is unbelievably frustrating.

chattychappy - it was a cash card so neither. we were lucky in that sense as they could only access the money we had pre-loaded onto the card. It could have been much more!

maninthestreet

So did you actually use the card in question anywhere in Thailand prior to the fraudulent withdrawal?

Tirian

I believe that money loaded on a pre-paid cash card is often technically "e-money" (because all cardholders' money is held in a single bank account and the individual balances and withdrawals etc are not segregated in any way other than lines on a central spreadsheet.)

Certainly there are fewer protections for money on pre-paid cards (e.g. FSCS does not apply).

I suggest you have a close look at the T&C of the particular product that you were using, and work out whether it is e-money or something else, and what the relevant regulations actually are.

dalesrider

Frustrated_and_confused wrote: »

I will try to be brief, over £400 was withdrawn from a cash card during a number of transactions at a time when we were on an overnight bus from Krabi to Bangkok.

We have absolutely no idea how this could happen as both the card and the PIN have to have been compromised. The card was not stolen and the PIN was destroyed in South Africa and not written down anywhere. Not only that, the card used was a secondary card on the account and not the one we normally used. So there is no way the PIN could have been viewed in use (both cards have separate PIN's). So it's a mystery and that's exactly what the card company, and now the FCA are leaning on.

Had the cards been used at all to take cash or in a retailer where the PIN was entered?
Who would know the PIN's on the cards?
Do these cards have chips on? If they do then if counterfeit cards were used. It would show in a different way on the systems.
If not, then you would have a very hard case to prove C/F cards. Only way would be if the card provider could see a captured card in a atm and you returned your cards.

Frustrated_and_confused wrote: »

The regulations state that the money should be refunded immediately unless we are proven to be negligent, which we weren't. This is also information quoted by Watchdog, Rogue Traders and Which.

Well a spoke in the wheel here could be the type of card you have and where that company is based. PSD is a EU regulation. So any company outside the EU does not have to apply them.

You also have to remember that these are journalistic programs. Who have not had legal staff going over the regulations with a fine toothcomb and referring to the regulator to ensure they are compliant.

Frustrated_and_confused wrote: »

It seems like the regulations were written with the sole purpose of protecting the banks and not the consumers if they can't be "applied in a clear cut manner".

:-(

As someone who deals with this day in day out. I have to jump through no end of hoops to NOT refund a customer. Believe me it is not a decision that I would take lightly and I have to be 100% certain in a case before it is presented to management to be approved.
So from the inside looking out. I think the reverse is true.

TBH. Would you rather they had refunded you and then told you that they were going to re-debit you? Given it was a prepay card, that may not be a option they would entertain.
T/C would be the best place to start on this. Although you may already have been there.

dalesrider

chattychappy wrote: »

You are confusing the FSA with the FOS. The FSA has been replaced by the FCA. The FOS continues to handle complaints about financial products (FSA/FCA and OFT regulated), just as before.
.

I stand corrected. You are correct.