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Would you pass someone a glass of water
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What evidence have you got for saying pay is forced down?
I am not making any judgement on whether it is too high or too low...but the 2013 pay rates are:
A newly qualified nurse gets basic pay of £21400 plus a further 20% (min £4000) if in London, it rises each year (excluding pay awards) up to £27900 +London Allowance. Working nights or Saturdays is enhanced by 30% and Sundays & BH by 60%.
Many Nurses will be eligible/qualified for a promotion within 3 years and the next pay band earns up to £34500 (+London + unsocial). The next level such as a ward sister earns up to £40500 (London + unsocial). Matrons earn up to £47,000 (+London + unsocial)
It is a 37.5 hour week with 35 days min holiday (incl bh) rising to 41 days after 10 years.
QUOTE]
Sounds wonderful. Automatic staircase to utopia.
I guess the fact that many roles in the NHS are constantly being downgraded so fewer and fewer chance to progress upwards even though you may be eligible. Regular job reorganisations can lead to staff being displaced and having to reapply to retain same level roles. Salary band pay freezes for several years (6+) in some areas. Increased pension contributions leading to further reductions in take home pay.
Interesting take on the enhancements as many areas in the NHS have had these progressively reduced as has had the respite between shift swapover. 7/24/365 shift working is not easy."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
So-called "caring" parents who absolutely refuse to look after their parents/grans - perfectly happy to visit them in hospital and moan about their treatment but are not so happy to look after them at home.
I can see this looks wrong on the face of it, but looking after someone 24/7 is not possible for many people especially if they have other work or caring responsibilities.
Presumably if the person is in hospital and not a residential home then they actually need medical care.
Having a relative with dimensia and not being strong enough to lift the wheelchair over kerbs and steps, I can understand how difficult it would be to look after someone 24/7.0 -
I think a lot of people are over complicating this. My wife has two jobs in nursing, one for the NHS and one private sector. She absolutely loves the private sector job because they are in the position to give excellent care due to correct staffing levels. She hates her NHS job and would leave tomorrow if it wasn't for the pension. Many good nurses have already left hence the need for overseas nurses.
She physically is not able to provide the same level of care in the NHS, there aren't enough hours in the day, staffing levels border on unsafe! It's the same nurse but in two different environments you may have a very different opinion of her when in actual fact she is working MUCH harder when working for the NHS.
She cares equally about all her patients nhs or private but simply does not have the time when doing NHS work to provide the level of care some people think they are entitled to (and probably should get!). Patients needs have to be prioritised.0 -
I think a lot of people are over complicating this. My wife has two jobs in nursing, one for the NHS and one private sector. She absolutely loves the private sector job because they are in the position to give excellent care due to correct staffing levels. She hates her NHS job and would leave tomorrow if it wasn't for the pension. Many good nurses have already left hence the need for overseas nurses.
She physically is not able to provide the same level of care in the NHS, there aren't enough hours in the day, staffing levels border on unsafe! It's the same nurse but in two different environments you may have a very different opinion of her when in actual fact she is working MUCH harder when working for the NHS.
She cares equally about all her patients nhs or private but simply does not have the time when doing NHS work to provide the level of care some people think they are entitled to (and probably should get!). Patients needs have to be prioritised.
At the moment the private sector cherry pick what they want to do and who they do it for. Most are willing an dable to pay over the odds for it. They are also more likely to continue pay as the premiums increase although may begin to struggle as they age.
I doubt the same level of care would be offered to or could be afforded by all in a more universal private system. Once all were largely reliant the distribution in quality would become apparent."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
grizzly1911 wrote: »At the moment the private sector cherry pick what they want to do and who they do it for. Most are willing an dable to pay over the odds for it. They are also more likely to continue pay as the premiums increase although may begin to struggle as they age.
I doubt the same level of care would be offered to or could be afforded by all in a more universal private system. Once all were largely reliant the distribution in quality would become apparent.
A lot of my early private sector treatment was paid for for me. Some of what was not was offered at 'reduced rates' of between half listed price and free. Some of this was kindness, some was good business sense because of my benefactor and some was because my case was interesting. The private sector is sometimes charitable. (I am sure someone else's payment makes it possible for charity to be easily afforded, but it doesn't have to be)0 -
What evidence have you got for saying pay is forced down?
I am not making any judgement on whether it is too high or too low...but the 2013 pay rates are:
A newly qualified nurse gets basic pay of £21400 plus a further 20% (min £4000) if in London, it rises each year (excluding pay awards) up to £27900 +London Allowance. Working nights or Saturdays is enhanced by 30% and Sundays & BH by 60%.
Many Nurses will be eligible/qualified for a promotion within 3 years and the next pay band earns up to £34500 (+London + unsocial). The next level such as a ward sister earns up to £40500 (London + unsocial). Matrons earn up to £47,000 (+London + unsocial)
It is a 37.5 hour week with 35 days min holiday (incl bh) rising to 41 days after 10 years.
The NHS careers website tells that the NHS Pension is one of the most generous in the UK , it is final salary and the employer contributes 14%. You get full basic pay if you are of sick which grows with length of service up to 6 months before reducing to half pay. .
The reason newly arrived overseas nurses (as you describe) may be on fixed term contracts is most likely to be because they have Visa's and would not have indefinite leave to remain. That is immigration controls not employer choice. If you have gone to the trouble of recruiting overseas I would be surprised that you would shoot yourself in the foot by offering short term contracts unless you absolutely had to. EU nurses are not subject to Visa's nor should they discriminated against with ftc.
I do not believe overall that 'culture' is linked to pay. I regularly recieve some great customer service in restaurants and shops..not famed for high pay or generous terms and conditions in those services. It is more linked to Values, Leadership and Training/Education. The move to University rather than vocational training perhaps lost some of the 'care' attributes that were previously valued. Post mid staffs I hope we will see a sea change in the importance of care being recognised.
The figures you quote bear little relation to reality for the reasons given to you above. Even taken as read pay rates are not good are they! By the way its not all about nurses. Many of the staff providing the caring role are not qualified nurses. What about the cleaners and the ancillary staff.? Perhaps you could quote their pay rates as well?
The reason for the short term visa you mention does not change what I said one iota I'm afraid.
I do believe culture is being increasingly linked to pay because of what I said above about the prevailing values that govern us. Training and education as you mention are also important and so are numbers of staff. We will see a sea change as you put it when people stop thinking with their wallets!0 -
Even taken as read pay rates are not good are they!
By the way its not all about nurses. Many of the staff providing the caring role are not qualified nurses. What about the cleaners and the ancillary staff.? Perhaps you could quote their pay rates as well?
!
The point you made was that pay was that pay was forced down. I asked you for evidence to support your statement and did not comment on relative values.
To give a context though, average UK earnings were £26500 last November.
Nhs employed domestics/porters £14300 to £15000 + London weighting and have the same terms and conditions and pension as all other staff. A context for this is that minimum wage is £6.19 ph, the lowest paid newly recruited NHS employee is on basic pay of £7.31 (+London+ unsocial etc). The campaign for a living wage is for £8.55 in London and £7.45 elsewhere.
Healthcare Assistants earn £14300 - £17400 +London Allowances. There are a small number who gain NVQs etc for new roles and promotion up to earning £22000 +london.0 -
The point you made was that pay was that pay was forced down. I asked you for evidence to support your statement and did not comment on relative values.
Nhs employed domestics/porters £14300 to £15000 + London weighting and have the same terms and conditions and pension as all other staff.
I am not sure where you find staff pay held down for 3 - 6 years on a website particularly if it is trying to attract staff.
How many NHS direct employed porters/domestics are there these days? Many are now "outsourced" and I doubt new recruits would get much in the way of pension provision.
I would quite like to think offering a slightly higher rate of pay for new basic recruits would attract and allow selection of some more promising candidates."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
The point you made was that pay was that pay was forced down. I asked you for evidence to support your statement and did not comment on relative values.
Isn't the news today from the spending review evidence enough?
If not, NHS workers (and many in the public sector bar councillors, MPs etc) were on a pay freeze for 3 years and then have had 1% cost of living increases since.
That's forcing pay down relative to inflation.
It's forcing that pay down to save costs. Whether that is right or wrong is another matter, but it's evidence of pay being forced down relatively compared to where it was and compared to what you went in believing you would earn further down the line.0
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