Fewer tariffs demanded in energy bills reform: what it means for you

Cardew

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

The standing charge element, even if minced into the flat 'postcode delivery' price should not be on a sliding [volume / usage] scale. Rather a fixed, flat DECC / Ofgen pre-agreed annual amount per end user.

I am not against your aim, or that of MilicentBystander, but I can't see how that would work.

If, say, the Ofgem agreed annual amount was £120, how is that to be incorporated into the tariff charge, other than by a daily standing charge(or re-introduce the tier system;))

I am at both ends of the consumption spectrum; a heavy gas/electricity user in my house and a tiny gas/electricity consumption in an Annex(with Ebico)(perhaps 150kWh elect and 1,500kWh gas)

1. How would you 'absorb' the £120 into the heavy and low consumption charges for each account?

2. The Ofgem proposals allow a discount(only in pounds and pence) for Direct Debit, Paperless(internet) and Dual fuel.

Again how would those discounts be applied to each account?

Nada666

MillicentBystander wrote: »

For instance, does someone living on their own pay more for each individual item they buy in the supermarket compared to a household with 4 members? No. And why should they?

Yes, they do. Have you never ventured inside a supermarket?

victor2

Cardew wrote: »

I am not against your aim, or that of MilicentBystander, but I can't see how that would work.

If, say, the Ofgem agreed annual amount was £120, how is that to be incorporated into the tariff charge, other than by a daily standing charge(or re-introduce the tier system;))

I am at both ends of the consumption spectrum; a heavy gas/electricity user in my house and a tiny gas/electricity consumption in an Annex(with Ebico)(perhaps 150kWh elect and 1,500kWh gas)

1. How would you 'absorb' the £120 into the heavy and low consumption charges for each account?

2. The Ofgem proposals allow a discount(only in pounds and pence) for Direct Debit, Paperless(internet) and Dual fuel.

Again how would those discounts be applied to each account?

As with the introduction of any new system, there would be winners and losers.
The existing (almost impossible to comprehend) systems do allow users who fall into a certain category, such as the very low users, to choose a tariff which will benefit them. Hence the existence of Ebico.
The majority of domestic users are not financially affected by the difference between comparable two tier or NSC tariffs - they end up paying the standing charge anyway.
How would smaller supplier incorporate a fixed standing charge element into their kWh rate, when compared to one of the big 6? They would have to have a higher element because they have a smaller customer base to recover it over. That in turn, would make them less competitive, so they'd lose business. Eventually, only the big suppliers would exist and they'd be in a much better position to swing rates in their favour.

MillicentBystander

Nada666 wrote: »

Yes, they do. Have you never ventured inside a supermarket?

I go to one most days and whether I buy one loaf of Jackson's Yorkshire Champion Bread or more the cost is £1.38 per loaf. Where exactly do you shop?

Richie-from-the-Boro

Cardew wrote: »

I am not against your aim, or that of MilicentBystander, but I can't see how that would work.

If, say, the Ofgem agreed annual amount was £120, how is that to be incorporated into the tariff charge, other than by a daily standing charge(or re-introduce the tier system;))

I am at both ends of the consumption spectrum; a heavy gas/electricity user in my house and a tiny gas/electricity consumption in an Annex(with Ebico)(perhaps 150kWh elect and 1,500kWh gas)

1. How would you 'absorb' the £120 into the heavy and low consumption charges for each account?

2. The Ofgem proposals allow a discount(only in pounds and pence) for Direct Debit, Paperless(internet) and Dual fuel.

Again how would those discounts be applied to each account?

~~~~~ NOTE : The QUOTES below are not Cardew's, and not intended to represent anything Cardew has written but are questions by myself for myself to answer points raised ~~~~~

If, say, the Ofgem agreed annual amount for "transport and supply, maintenance, and all areas all outside the influence and control of the operators was set at a flat non variable agreed £0.00 for gas and £13 for electricity

- the industry makes an offer to the market of £x.00 for gas per kW delivered + the £0.00 pre-agreed with DECC & Ofgen
- and a separate offer to the market of £x.00 for electricity per kW delivered + the £13.00 pre-agreed with DECC & Ofgen
- both the pre-agreed gas & electricity T&S surcharge are incorporated into the kW delivery price at one 365th per delivery day

what about a discount(only in pounds and pence) for Direct Debit, Paperless(internet) and Dual fuel

An inflexible e-account & 6 weekly reads & DD paperless undertaking would already be imposed by DECC & Ofgen on both the customer and the supplier, before the contact is even 'deemed'. The is no discount for dual fuel, the offer made by the industry is just that, an offer of their cheapest price the are prepared to go per kW fuel delivered. That's Martini pricing, its portable, you can see it and take it from any-time any-place any-where any time you choose.

How would you 'absorb' the £120 into the heavy and low consumption charges for each account

- winners & loser's including myself as a middle high user
- specifically why no dual fuel discount
- each kW hour used pays the 365th
- 99% of the bell curve is either high gas - low leccy or the inverse
- 99% of the bell curve is either high leccy - low gas

Now if I'm correct and the T&S surcharge for gas is zero, then zero is the price a gas user pays and the whole of the T&S surcharge for electricity must be borne by the whole of the UK electricity user, that's entirely fair.

NOTE : Got the wink M8, for myself, I believe DECC's own figures which put the electricity T&S at £13.00+ not £120.

what about the astronomic green tree huggers and social cost delivery ?

- a huge 'tax' delivered and a whole other gigantic debate ...........
- but its here, I agree with the social cost sharing, but violently, violently disagree with the iniquitous 'green' levy
- the industry makes an offer to the market of £?.?? for gas per kW delivered + the £?.?? green levy pre-agreed with DECC & Ofgen
- and a separate offer to the market of £?.?? for electricity per kW delivered + the £?.?? social levy pre-agreed with DECC & Ofgen

Both the pre-agreed gas & electricity social & green surcharge are incorporated into the kW delivery price at one 365th per delivery day for everyone on these islands.

- I for example have no gas supply so would pay one 730th per kW delivered
- ditto [if one exists] someone with no electricity but a gas supply delivery would pay one 730th per kW delivered
- dual users would pay one 365th on each of both supplied fuels

Cardew I do take your point on the re-introduction of the tier system, and yes, there are anomalies in what I suggest but then its both monolithic and megalithic system. Unless a flat, fair, transparent and fixed [non-variable] system is delivered nothing will change and the generators and suppliers will continue to manipulate by deliberate obscurification, ably abetted by DECC & ofgen on behalf of their real puppet-master the UK government.

victor2

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

Both the pre-agreed gas & electricity social & green surcharge are incorporated into the kW delivery price at one 365th per delivery day for everyone on these islands.

Sorry, but I don't understand that. Say the surcharge for one fuel works out at 50p per day and I use between 10 and 50 kWh per day of that particular fuel. What is my kWh rate if there is no standing charge? Does it vary according to how much I use? If so, how is it calculated?

Nada666

MillicentBystander wrote: »

I go to one most days and whether I buy one loaf of Jackson's Yorkshire Champion Bread or more the cost is £1.38 per loaf. Where exactly do you shop?

In most supermarkets (M&S, Tesco, Morrisons) you buy one loaf you pay more than if you buy two. Same with fruit juice, sausages, walnut whips, cooked meats, prepacked fruit, boil in the bag kippers, yoghurt, pizza, you name it. Meat is no longer the one price.

About the only thing you can buy for the one price is alcohol in Scotland.

Cardew

Richie,

Both the pre-agreed gas & electricity social & green surcharge are incorporated into the kW delivery price at one 365th per delivery day for everyone on these islands.

- I for example have no gas supply so would pay one 730th per kW delivered - ditto [if one exists] someone with no electricity but a gas supply delivery would pay one 730th per kW delivered
dual users would pay one 365th on each of both supplied fuels

The idea was to simplfy tariffs!

You have moved away from the Ofgem proposals to your proposals - which ain't going to happen.

Ofgem are proposing:

4 gas tariffs per company

4 electricity tariffs per company

3 discounts, Dual Fuel, Internet and Direct Debit.

How do we define 'fair'?

There is no question for example that the pre-pay tariffs are far more expensive to administer. The kWh prices were reduced from an already uneconomic level after political intervention; i.e. a cross-subsidy.

Ditto the 'social tariffs'.

So what happens to pre-pay and social tariffs with your 'flat, fair, transparent and fixed [non-variable] system' ? Remove the cross subsidy?

MillicentBystander

Nada666 wrote: »

In most supermarkets (M&S, Tesco, Morrisons) you buy one loaf you pay more than if you buy two. Same with fruit juice, sausages, walnut whips, cooked meats, prepacked fruit, boil in the bag kippers, yoghurt, pizza, you name it. Meat is no longer the one price.

About the only thing you can buy for the one price is alcohol in Scotland.

Thank you for confirming what I was suspecting - you are on the wind up. No further response from me.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Cardew wrote: »

Richie,




The idea was to simplify tariffs!

You have moved away from the Ofgem proposals to your proposals - which ain't going to happen.

Ofgem are proposing:

4 gas tariffs per company

4 electricity tariffs per company

3 discounts, Dual Fuel, Internet and Direct Debit.

How do we define 'fair'?

There is no question for example that the pre-pay tariffs are far more expensive to administer. The kWh prices were reduced from an already uneconomic level after political intervention; i.e. a cross-subsidy.

Ditto the 'social tariffs'.

So what happens to pre-pay and social tariffs with your 'flat, fair, transparent and fixed [non-variable] system' ? Remove the cross subsidy?

I was never on the Ofgem proposal, not remotely on the Ofgem proposal, like I suspect yourself think the new Ofgem proposal is merely 'more of the same', as I said in a previous post in a similar thread : -

if it worked we would not be here almost 30 years after 'hissing sid' - still no competition - still no action - still rising prices on two levels. Energy costs are rising and will continue - but in parallel the profits for energy supply are rinsing year on year

Regards the 'pre-pay and social tariffs', I've said already that :-

Both the pre-agreed gas & electricity social & green surcharge are incorporated into the kW delivery price at one 365th per delivery day for everyone on these islands

And yes you can add pre-pay to that, the same calc of one 365th per delivery day can be and should be added, in the same way as it is for the rest of society. If there are other added costs for the pre-pay delivery, then they should be added to the pre-pay cost, not my cost. I'm already on record many times saying that I do not want to cross subsidise anone - let them pay their own bills, and I'll tell you why I hold that strong view. Those who are in the genuine 'means tested' bracket of fuel poverty will have the adjustment made by GOV, as is already the case - that's what the social levy is and where it already goes to.

to your proposals

I was never on the Ofgem proposal, not remotely on the Ofgem proposal. I am saying the Ofgem proposal debated here is the same old same old beautifully vague minced up unfair system that the suppliers, GOV, the regulator and DECC prefer. Its the same reason why no GOV has managed to get real competition into the market, as long as the tail wags the dog it never will. The new proposed system will be almost the same as the old system and will do nothing for 'fair' pricing.

Fair pricing is a pre-agreed flat unit price per kW price delivered to my door, no leaving fees, no dual bonus, no tiers, etc and truly portable. I click on the button and agree a price to my door, put the price up by even an penny, and I and millions of others will click on any other of the big6 who are cheaper. That's competition in the market.

which ain't going to happen

Agreed !