£80 charges because atm lied !

mikk

:mad: My girlfriend just rang me in a panic. A couple of weeks ago she drew £200 from her Abbey current account at a Lloyds atm. I was with her to witness the machine displaying £300 in credit (the till receipt proves it). We carried on into town where she used her visa card to pay for goods £5 odd and then later for groceries around £14. A statement arrived today saying they are charging £20 for going overdrawn in the first instance ie. the atm was 'lying' and there really wasn't £300 in the account, and another £60, £30 each time she used the card in shops!
In a world where we are actively encouraged to rely on electronic technology moving towards the holy grail that is the moneyless society how can people budget when these machines cant be trusted to tell us how much money is in our accounts?
Her only income is SSP so every penny is counted at the moment. I will draught a letter explaining the above to Abbey but I am expecting they will reject it with a standard response. I guess the next step would then be the template letter reclaiming charges but I think this has been the only time in six years she has gone overdrawn. Where does she stand legally?

Dylanwing

You might be advised to check out what caused the account to go overdrawn. Was it a cheque/ DD/ SO that was not allowed for, as previously suggested, an uncleared cheque, or something else. The ATM can provide an on the spot balance, but not manage your money for you. I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, but my wife once did the same, forgetting about a cheque she had written two days earlier - Her fault, but luckily, Nationwide were sympathetic and halved the charge.

However, I do think that £80 for what appears to be a minor transgression is unreasonable. Oh for the days when Bank staff had discretion and could apply common sense to charging!

Xbigman

The balance amount displayed on an ATM is not accurate. This is a well known problem. Debit card transactions are the biggest cause of the variations that you can experience but there are other causes too.

Never trust the balance on an ATM. You should track the balance yourself. If you spend money because an ATM says you have it and you don't, you are liable.

Also beware one other problem with ATM's. My available balance that Lloyds reports includes my overdraft, so I have that much less in there. Luckily my overdraft is large-ish so it was obvious something was wrong.
Regards


X

bargains83

Debit card transactions go in a 'pending' state, usually they are immediately taken from the available balance and then put on the statement and deducted from the account 2 or 3 days later when the company you used your card with asks for the money from the bank. If they don't however request the money within this 2/3 day time frame the money is put back on the available balance and therefore able to be spent elsewhere, but you still owe it and it will be deducted at some point so should ensure that there are sufficient funds for when the amount does come through.

Another reason is 'floor limits', for example Tesco may allow you to spend £30 on groceries without even checking the balance on the card and thus whether the funds are there or not, and therefore it doesn't even show as taken from your available balance but will still be deducted from your account a few days later.

This is the same policy with every bank and every card (Visa/Maestro/Electron/Solo) so its not something you can avoid, as others have said. Without meaning to sound patronising your girlfriend just needs to be a bit more financially savvy, tell her not to strictly trust what the ATM tells her, and think logically like when she gets paid and keeping a note of how much she's spent using her debit card and at the hole in the wall between pay days.

Registering for e-banking if not already is also a very good idea.

sgx.saint

Agree with most of the comments posted so far, and have nothing further to add regarding the ATM specifically.

However, you state in your OP that the money in the account was from benefits.

I do think it would be worth sending them a letter explaining the situation, and asking them to remove all charges as a result. They may be quite understanding.

You could specifically quote the following in your letter:-

---
Social Security Administration Act 1992
Miscellaneous
Certain benefit to be inalienable **

187- Subject to the provisions of this Act, every assignment of, or charge on-
(a)benefit as defined in section 122 of the Contributions and Benefits Act;
(b)any income-related benefit; or
(c)child benefit,
and every agreement to assign or charge such benefit shall be void; and, on the bancrupcy of the beneficiary, such benefit shall not pass to any trustee or other person acting on behalf of his creditors
---

There is an excellent thread over on the CAG forums regarding banks and benefits payments, it may be well worth a read.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/36790-bank-taking-your-benefits.html

This thread also discusses the "Right of Appropriation" which maybe of some use to your girlfriend in the future.

Although I do echo the comments that she needs to manage her income and outgoings a little more carefully.

thesaint

Your girlfriend had less than £19 in her account but thought that an ATM displaying £300 was correct?

Paul_Herring

mikk wrote: »

ie. the atm was 'lying' and there really wasn't £300 in the account, and another £60, £30 each time she used the card in shops!
[...]
In a world where we are actively encouraged to rely on electronic technology moving towards the holy grail that is the moneyless society how can people budget when these machines cant be trusted to tell us how much money is in our accounts?

Her only income is SSP so every penny is counted at the moment.

Let me get this straight... the ATM told you there was £300, and you (or she) had come up with this same figure independantly?

I hope you're not assuming that because the machine said you had £300 available, that you had that much to spend.

It's all very well thinking that you're being actively encouraged to rely on electronic technology to do your budgeting for you, but you need to put in some effort, like recording other stuff that you've spent from your account that won't be in that figure.

For example, if you'd spent that £60+£30 first, then went to the ATM, I'm guessing it would have still told you that you had £300 available, not £210.

Immediate, speed-of-light, monetary transactions aren't with us yet. And it's wrong to assume they are, then blame the banks when the sums don't add up.

John_in_the_city

Abbey had signifiant technical problems over the last few weeks during migrations of their systems to the spanish parent, Santander. During this time some of the systems were not in synch. It is possible that you were affected by this problem. I would call them and explain your situation, have the specific dates at hand, and explore with them that possibility. If it was the case then of course you would be entitled to have all charges re-imbursed.

realaledrinker

Also if you checked your balance at the weekend, this would also give a false picture as any cheques in the banking system, for example, would also come off that balance on the Monday. Banks don't recognise weekends, Thus if the ATM said you had £220 available on Saturday, you withdrew £50 and then found £200 worth of cheques hit your account on the Monday, you would get charged as your account is now in the red.

Alion

I'd phone them up, explain the situation and ask nicely if they can do something about it...a polite phone call will often sort out problems where ranting/getting angry puts people's backs up. If you don't get anywhere, you can follow it up with a formal letter.

mikk

Thanks guys, some very informative replies, especially as I hardly ever use atms. I'm in the process of putting together a letter (when I finish reading threads!) The charges will be made on the 13th of June so it will be in their hands in plenty of time. I wont rant but give them the facts. Thanks sgx.saint, interesting information on the cag forum. I will draw their attention to the fact that the balance comprises of working tax credit and statutory sick pay (there is no mention of ssp comeing under the umbrella of the ss admin act '92, but I will mention that by implementing these charges she will be placed in severe hardship, which it would.