Sky News Poll Reveals Huge Divide On Europe

lewisa

Repatriation of powers is a red herring.

It needs reform at the core, not unilateral shenanigans. Every EU govt knows this.

People who don't accept this have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the EU, real politik, and the world in general works.

BobQ

Yes

Sampong wrote: »

That'e precisely the ignorant attitude that is causing a divide in this country. It originates with the politicians who are arrogant enough to believe they can get their message across by insulting their voters.

It's not even worth responding to you since your arguments revolve around only 4 concepts.

1) You have to agree with me or else.
2) If you don't you're a twit
3) I am right, you are wrong, I will ignore any opposing points to my argument.
4) I've crossed my fingers so i'm afraid that is the end of that.

I used the term "Fruitcake Alliance" to cover UKIP, BNP and the anti-EU rump of the Tory Party. Obviously the Alliance has no sense of humour either!

I am not trying to convince anyone merely stating that so far the debate has been trivialised and when there is a real debate the arguments will be properly considered.

As to your 4 "concepts" I never said any of this. As ever you infer things that suit you without foundation. Do you disagree that the Sky Poll indicates that leaving the EU would probably not happen? How else can you interpret the figures objectively?

BobQ

Yes

angrypirate wrote: »

The EU now is SO MUCH MORE than a free trade area. The idea of it being simple a free trade area was simple and fantastic, but now it has outgrown its purpose and become disfunction and epically failing.

I never said it was simply or just a free trade area! I was responding to a statement that the EU had failed. I was making the point that while the Euro has arguably failed there is more to the EU than the Euro. Specifically, the Free Trade aspects are one part of the EU that works. I agree that there is more to the EU than that free trade.

It is undemocratic, unelected and unaccountable

.

This is a matter of opinion. I do not thing political institutions are perfect but the EU is accountable to the member nations and they are doing nothing that we have not freely agreed to by Treaties we signed though our national democratic processes. We did sign the Treaties of Rome. Maastrict etc.

They decide their own budget and bring into law stupid laws. Look at fire extinguishers. Look at how they back-tracked at the metric law. Look at the latest epic fail that they are now subsidising TABACCO FARMERS! Look at vacuum cleaners. The list goes on. And all this has NOTHING to do with free trade.

This is the sort of trivialisation of the EU that irritates me.

Firstly we have the opportunity to influence the decisions the EU makes through its political processes. I do not like everything that the EU does but we share in the responsibility for what it does. I do not agree with everything the UK Government does, or my local Council does but I have to accept that it does what it does based on the democratic processes we have.

Secondly, one of the reasons that free trade works is the existence of standards that make it easier for any EU supplier of goods and services to sell to customers in other EU nations. What is your problem with fire extinguishers? Do you oppose having them at all? Does it not make sense that one used in France is the same as one in Germany? These comments seem like a regurgitation of the Daily Mail headlines.

And PLEASE DONT CALL ME A FRUITCAKE.

I do not think I did. Cameron used the term to characterise UKIP and they appear to be leading the crusade to leave the EU. But if you prefer I call this an anti-EU Alliance fine.

I want to live in a country that is its own country. Decides its own laws and decides where its own money goes. Decides who we allow in and who we deport out.

As we import so much from the EU, do you really think they will castigate us if we leave? Even the EU idiots arent stupid enough to cut off their nose to spite their face.

Its funny when I use the term Fruitcake Alliance I am criticised but when you use the term "EU idiot" this is fine. I mention this not because it bothers me but merely to observe the fact that it works both ways.

You are entitled to express the above view about the sort of country you want to live in, but I re-iterate the decisions to have what we have now were freely entered into Treaties signed by the UK. We can leave if that is the majority wish but a country with increasingly less influence like ours will not benefit from these parochial attitudes. The EU will change by popular demand. The public in Germany, France etc are all more sceptical about the EU and the Euro and we should be part of this debate, not continually protesting on the side lines. We should do what Cameron is already doing to change the EU from within, but do so constructively.

BobQ

Yes

Sampong wrote: »

I don't think so.

................................................
Pricklepants's survey comes close to that, and at a guess I would say that in this small sample size of 60, we have a higher than average proportion of Europhles.

Possibly true but we also at a guess have a higher than average number people who are interested in the facts of the matter. They may be on both sides of the debate, with different views, but they are at least considering the arguments. Many voters are not that interested in my opinion.

BobQ

Yes

Graham_Devon wrote: »

What's interesting about this poll is that for those voting no, it appears they are far more open to discussion and debate.

For those voting yes, the answer is clear and are less willing to listen to debate and discussion.

Excellent to see so many in the no camp though!

Is it that they are "open to discussion and debate" or that they are less confident of the arguments for/implications of leaving?

I have no idea;)

pqrdef

Yes

michaels wrote: »

teh two party system in the UK means that parties will change their policies to reflect voter concerns and enact policies they have offered. There is much less pressure or this to happen at an EU level.

That's what bothers me. I'm more afraid of British voters than I am of Brussels or Strasbourg.

Your argument still assumes that They will do it wrong and We will do it better. But I don't see a Them, I see only a choice of We's, and it's not at all clear to me that one We is automatically better than the other one.

After all, the local council is total crap and would be far worse if the government would let it, so nearer obviously doesn't mean better.

And you only have to look at US State governors and legislatures to see the vital importance of the Federal government.

N1AK

Yes, but I could be swayed depending on debate/negociations

Graham_Devon wrote: »

What's interesting about this poll is that for those voting no, it appears they are far more open to discussion and debate.

For those voting yes, the answer is clear and are less willing to listen to debate and discussion.

First your adamant that your political persuasion is the poor repressed underdog and it turns out it is the majority view. Now you've scientifically determined that those who share your view are the balanced and open ones :rotfl:

I think you'd struggle to come across as less objective, open or balanced.