Three direct debits

dtmark

I think I've made a mistake and have only myself to blame here.

I haven't used direct debits for about ten years as they're so insecure - you basically say to the payee "take any amount whenever you like".

We use 3 for our home broadband as it's the only option, and it actually works very well. 7GB costs £25 so we'd normally spend about £100/mo.

I was drawn to the "One month rolling SIM" offer of 10GB for £15/mo which sadly has to be paid by DD but I thought - fixed amount, fixed day of the month. What can go wrong? If all goes well, I'll get three of them so our costs go down from £100/mo to £45/mo. Very nice.

The SIM arrives with a letter that says I'll be billed on the 20th and the payment will be taken approximately 19 days after the bill date.

As it happened the money got debited on the 9th last month, but was more than £15 - £17 actually as the month end was pro rated.

Received no notification of the debit, no bill, no advice it would be more than £15. Was going to have this recalled by the Bank as it's in breach.

On my bank account, it also says "Frequency: Unknown" which is incorrect because the frequency is monthly. So I've authorised 3 to set up a monthly direct debit mandate, and they appear to have taken it upon themselves to extend this agreement to "whenever".

Then I think ahead - the payee is required to notify the customer of any changes to amount and date. Date was vaguely advised, change of amount wasn't. I have no correspondence at all regarding payments, debits, dates.

So on what date next month might it be debited and how much will it be? I don't know.

Wandering online to the "My 3" section I can see "Bills" and there's a bill in there with a debit date of the 9th for the amount that was taken.

This is not "notifying the customer". If the customer is "notified" they do not need to remember to go to the website regularly and notify themselves.

These are only small amounts, but as I see it, I cannot guarantee that 3 will get paid in any particular or timely fashion because of the way in which this is set up. Mercifully I do not have any other Direct Debits.

I should have known better than to involve myself with Direct Debit, is abuse of the system this widespread now that you more or less hand over bank details and just hope for the best, or, just remain as I was, and not allow Direct Debits in the first place?

Have I gone mad? Is this "normal" now?

Hazzanet

dtmark wrote: »

Have I gone mad? Is this "normal" now?

This is very normal now.

dtmark

Hmm.... checking Experian online, 3 have also set up reporting within my credit history.

I don't believe I have any credit agreement with them. So what that's doing there is a mystery too.

I've always advised people against DD in the past for all these reasons and feel exceptionally stupid now that I fell for it.

The right thing to do would be to have the Bank reverse off that debit and all future debits because they do not comply with the Direct Debit Guarantee, and leave the ball in 3's court.

Maybe that's why it's on my Experian file to make sure I do not do just that.

I shall cancel this with the one month's notice, go back to PAYG and remind myself about the dangers of Direct Debit.

The farce of all this is that the company would presumably rather have the contract and I'm attracted to the benefits, but there is no workable means of guanteeting that the sums due will be available on the due dates so it's a lose-lose for everyone really.

Lesson learned.

Gromitt

Halifax always said "Frequency: Unknown" until the DD happened twice, and then it changed. Ie, they are not notified of when payments are taken, rather they calculate it by how often it is taken.

Companies hate sending you mail as it costs them money, so they'll default to sending you "e-Statements", which you need to login to their "secure portal" to access.

So if you login to your portal on the 21st next month, you should be able to figure out when the next DD occurs and for how much.

DDs can be setup by anyone so you don't "allow" them as such, more like kick up a fuss if one appears that you don't recognise.

and £100 for 28GB of mobile data usage seems expensive. Last time I was in Orange I was offered an "all you can eat" data plan for £25/month. It consisted of a white box with a sim card in it which acted as a wireless point. First month was free, so I took up the offer whilst moving house and cancelled after the first month.

Hazzanet

dtmark wrote: »

Hmm.... checking Experian online, 3 have also set up reporting within my credit history.

I don't believe I have any credit agreement with them. So what that's doing there is a mystery too.

As it is possible to go over the allowance and run up a bill, they are providing a line of credit. The terms and conditions you would have read and agreed to at the point of sign-up will have indicated that they will credit check you and share payment data with credit reference agencies.

dtmark wrote: »

I've always advised people against DD in the past for all these reasons and feel exceptionally stupid now that I fell for it.

Admittedly it's not for everyone, but with a little organisation it can be an exceptionally powerful method of payment. Each to their own though.

dtmark wrote: »

The right thing to do would be to have the Bank reverse off that debit and all future debits because they do not comply with the Direct Debit Guarantee, and leave the ball in 3's court.

You will have agreed to electronic/online billing at signup.

They have complied with the DD rules. They are allowed to notify you electronically in the monthly invoice, which you have agreed to collect monthly. If you don't collect it, I'm afraid it's not Three's fault.

dtmark wrote: »

Maybe that's why it's on my Experian file to make sure I do not do just that.

I wouldn't for the reasons you outline above.

dtmark wrote: »

I shall cancel this with the one month's notice, go back to PAYG and remind myself about the dangers of Direct Debit.

Fair enough, but you're missing out on a decent saving that shouldn't be a problem if you organise yourself a little better.

meer53

It is normal. Direct Debits are perfectly safe and nothing to be afraid of. The date of a direct debit is rarely fixed, it usually varies by a couple of days depending on when your payment falls due. If it's not a working day it will vary. As will the amount if your usage increases or decreases. Expecting it to debit on a fixed day for a fixed amount isnt really going to happen with a DD.

I can't believe you have to pay £100 for home broadband ? Thats very high. I have unlimited broadband, unlimited evening and weekend phone calls, land line rental and my Sky tv package for £46 per month.

dtmark

Gromitt wrote: »

Companies hate sending you mail as it costs them money, so they'll default to sending you "e-Statements", which you need to login to their "secure portal" to access.

So if you login to your portal on the 21st next month, you should be able to figure out when the next DD occurs and for how much.

That is in breach of the Direct Debit guarantee, which requires the payee to notify the customer. I do not believe it's a case of word semantics here. Posting a bill online is not notifying the customer. Sending a letter, email or text message would be notifying the customer, I received nothing.

Hazzanet wrote: »

They have complied with the DD rules. They are allowed to notify you electronically in the monthly invoice, which you have agreed to collect monthly. If you don't collect it, I'm afraid it's not Three's fault.

I think we might have to agree to completely disagree on that one.

Even if factually true terms such as how payment is orchestrated need to be very clear, not buried in some small print somewhere to try to "trap" people.

Had the screens said this while signing up, I would not have proceeded. Ironically the letter they sent even makes mention of the DD guarantee and prints the very text on it that they then ride roughshod over.

This would not be the case if the bill were electronically emailed to the customer ("notification") monthly.

It appears that 3 assert that I need to put an entry in my diary to "go and look at the 3 bill" every month to see how much and when, whereas the DD guarantee requires them to notify the customer if the dates and amounts change.

I do not believe one = the other.

meer53 wrote: »

I can't believe you have to pay £100 for home broadband ? Thats very high. I have unlimited broadband, unlimited evening and weekend phone calls, land line rental and my Sky tv package for £46 per month.

We can have Sky but it would be more expensive than that (Market 1 exchange) and would only be "narrowband" at 1.5Meg since the phone lines are atrocious quality (just ADSL2+, no fibre here, no cable).

Most of our usage is watching streamed HDTV which Sky couldn't even supply here, our 3 mobile broadband runs at between 9Meg and 14Meg down (all wired in, antenna, router, homeplugs etc)

We do save about £16/mo by not having a phone line, though, since it doesn't need one, so there's one positive

I would raise all this with Three except that people seem quite happy at this sort of arrangement, either don't know about the DD guarantee or simply do not care about it, and it appears that I'm in a minority.

It's the only provider we can use here and the actual service is very good, it's just a shame about the backoffice systems and lack of observance of the DD guarantee, but we can still remain on PAYG. I shall try to use a little less data, we've watched all of Breaking Bad on Netflix now

I have to make at least one further payment, I think, as it's 30 days notice to cancel the contract.

Thanks all. Not great news, but this experience does tally with the problems I'd previously associated with handing over open access to your bank account so I won't be doing it again.

meer53

3 haven't done anything wrong here, and the direct debit system works perfectly well. There's even a guarantee you can call on if anything goes wrong with a DD.

It seems that you just don't like the DD and 3's systems. If you sign up to a company who operate a paperless billing system, as many do these days, it really is up to you to check for your bill and make a note of when it's due to debit.

Direct debits make life easy for the majority of people, there's no risk of missing a payment, the amount can be varied, and if it goes wrong, your bank can deal with it for you via the indemnity guarantee. I can't see whats not to like really.

As for handing over open access to your account, you're much more at risk by using a debit card.

dtmark

Aha. I stand corrected.

Apparently, notification is indeed sent by text message to the mobile broadband device.

If that were plugged into my PC then an alert would come up on the screen about that.

However it is not. It is plugged into a router which does not then receive the messages.

This is why I won't get any notifications. Most people, however, would.

So it appears I'm wrong about the "notification" bit. Three do attempt to comply with the DD guarantee. My apologies to them.

I have managed to change the billing to "paper summary by post" (no charge for that) so I get notifications.

There is also mention of being able to pay via Online Banking for an extra £4 a month which is still cheaper than our original PAYG so I'll see if I can change it to that as opposed to cancelling it.

System

I would suggest you get 3 to cap the contract broadband sim as otherwise the sim will go over the 10GB package.

When you call to cancel they may offer you a deal; offers such as £5 for 15GB have been known.

R_P_W

All my bills equating to just over 2k a month are direct debit. Have been for 10 years......never had any problems what so ever.

I actually couldn't imagine not having direct debits. Simple, straightforward and means never missing a payment.

Struggling to see what your issue is